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Rethinking the Luddites

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Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#111

Post by TotalCrackpot »

gadflyinyoureye wrote: post #94
TotalCrackpot wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that slavery too was justified to be just human nature and now it's fairly niche in richer parts of the world? Your argument is essentialist, so I find it weak. And both Russia and China are capitalist countries actually.

https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slav... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Afri...

Ok, so do you endorse slavery cause its human nature? What is your point? 50 million out of over 8 billion is much better ratio than what was in some societies based on slavery.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#112

Post by labrador »

I like to imagine a world where people don't have to work or worry about health care. It's all done by AI and robots. People are free to pursue their hobbies and other interests. How would we treat each then? Would we still be in terrible conflict with hate and prejudice prevalent?

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#113

Post by rafaelero »

zlg_codes wrote: post #58
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the first time in history a machine can come up with novel ideas. Up until now, you were only really automating away the boring stuff.

Since when can a computer come up with a novel idea? Do not be fooled by GPT, it's a fancy Markov chain hooked up to training data. It cannot come up with anything that wasn't already in its data set.

GPT-4 is around the 99th percentile on creative thinking.[1]

[1] https://www.umt.edu/news/2023/07/070523test.php

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#114

Post by nemo44x »

zlg_codes wrote: post #64
coolhand2120 wrote: post #14

People are happy to use tech like wix to build a web page because building web pages is hard. Virtually every designer, artist, writer, and musician, were all very happy to use wix even though it cost the jobs of legions of developers. “Finally I can do what these nerds can do without their help”. I really don’t see the difference.

This is a great perspective because, if humans acted rationally and ethically, it would be reality. The problem I have with tools like that is the technical quality of the solution (which Wix seemed somewhat reasonable in its output when I briefly looked around at Wix sites) and the social effects. Putting together a Wix site and buying or downloading/installing a theme does not make you a Web developer. You're still…

> It's strange to me that people want to be able to "do what the nerds can", but don't want to put any of the effort forth.

People, generally speaking, want outcomes. They don’t care how it’s done or what is used to get there. No one goes to the hardware store to buy a drill. They go there to buy holes.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#115

Post by czl »

zlg_codes wrote: post #75
czl wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How were the Luddites harming others by preserving their way of life? Me and my pals have some skill that you can now buy a machine and replace so me my pals put on masks and come visit you to smash those machines. Me and my pals want to keep getting paid for the work the machine can do nearly free now. Are me and my pals not imposing costs on others? > We're caring about money in a discussion about technology and…

The Luddites were free people who knew a trade that machines were threatening to make obsolete. The slavery situation is nowhere near comparable. Slave owners didn't care one iota about their livestock, they were a means to an end. Did the Luddites capture or enslave anyone? I think this comparison was made solely to raise the temperature of the conversation. Vandalism or destruction of property is nowhere near as in…

If your job was X by hand and now a machine does X better what gives you the right to deny others who want to use such a machine?

> The Luddites were free people who knew a trade that machines were threatening to make obsolete.

Did Luddites not feel it was their right to impose costs on others to maintain their way of life?

> Slave owners didn't care one iota about their livestock, they were a means to an end.

Slave owners not feel it was their right to impose costs on others to maintain their way of life?

The two cases are obviously different however do you deny both involve the the belief that it is ok to impose costs on others to maintain some way of life? There is nothing in common?

>Choosing to leave certain people behind and not offer retraining or some other opportunity is exactly what creates the malice that would motivate a tradesman to destroy machinery.

A society that leaves members behind will be out competed and replaced by societies that are smarter about this. Ditto for a society that imposes costs on others so that some group can continue to maintain some legacy way of life.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#116

Post by phillipcarter »

labrador wrote: post #112

I like to imagine a world where people don't have to work or worry about health care. It's all done by AI and robots. People are free to pursue their hobbies and other interests. How would we treat each then? Would we still be in terrible conflict with hate and prejudice prevalent?

In the US at least, the imperative should be to create policy and systems that don't make healthcare completely unavailable for millions of people in the first place. AI and robots don't mean anything without access.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#117

Post by randomcarbloke »

fredoliveira wrote: post #87
randomcarbloke wrote: post #13

The rewriting of history shows no sign of slowing I see.

Care to expand?

As evidenced by this thread; convenient revisionism by resentful ideologues, aligning luddites with the flavour-of-the-month outrage...be it working conditions, unionisation, etc.

The connotations of "luddite" are apt because they're accurate, we have evidence of their activities but also documented evidence of their intentions and beliefs.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#118

Post by gadflyinyoureye »

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #111
gadflyinyoureye wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.un.org/en/delegate/50-million-people-modern-slav... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_contemporary_Afri...

Ok, so do you endorse slavery cause its human nature? What is your point? 50 million out of over 8 billion is much better ratio than what was in some societies based on slavery.

I think slavery is human nature. White people didn’t invent it. All cultures came up with it through various versions. But then again rape and murder is human nature too.

My point was that slavery is still a real thing even in poor countries. Hence the second link about Africa.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#119

Post by tegmark »

coolhand2120 wrote: post #14

People are happy to use tech like wix to build a web page because building web pages is hard. Virtually every designer, artist, writer, and musician, were all very happy to use wix even though it cost the jobs of legions of developers. “Finally I can do what these nerds can do without their help”. I really don’t see the difference.

then you are completely blind. dont see the difference between the printing press and total human obsolescence as well as the insane ramifications of technology explosion that comes with agi

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#120

Post by fatherzine »

ehnto wrote: post #109
nemo44x wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be more companies making things and providing things than there are today because there’s more labor available. We can do the things that aren’t of higher necessity today.

To sell to who? If no one has income, who buys the things?

Income can be generated politically, see e.g. Soviet command economy.
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