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Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

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Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at least as much energy as we got in aggregate from all our fossil fuel burning human civilization captured over the past century to the project. We're several orders of magnitude in renewable and nuclear generation fleets away from that possibility. Several orders of magnitude? That's not right at all. If we more or less stopped emitting carbon, and devoted just 2x our current renewable and nuclear production to c…

World renewable at around 12% * in 2022 [1], Nuclear is 9%. "2x current renewable and nuclear" for reclamation involves tripling current installations, and then it's another nearly 5x increase on current installations just to "stop emitting carbon". Agreed with you that 7x isn't "several orders of magnitude" but it's certainly not happening anytime soon either. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-prod-…

Right, so you agree with my math? They were talking about just the energy to capture, so I gave that number first, followed by the number to do both.

> Agreed with you that 7x isn't "several orders of magnitude" but it's certainly not happening anytime soon either.

The hard part of that 7x is switching our current energy uses. It's not the extra power. And a reliable grid with that many renewables should make lots of extra power as a side effect.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon credits can work in a system where you don't just let people make them with weak verification. The problem isn't the underlying concept.

The problem is inseparable from the system, because people are involved.

It could be done. Show me the carbon you sequestered and how the containment will work.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#133
post #116

Let's get a baseline for comparison. For example, how many climate tech startups, or tech startups in general, are "likely junk"? That would give us some helpful context.

Junk startups don't cause much harm to the outside world. In contrast, selling junk carbon offsets is basically fraud, you're selling an environmental impact that just isn't there.

Giving junk a pass under normal circumstances may be what is causing much of this greenwashing. It speaks to the overall culture of startups.

If this 78% figure is consistent with the figures of tech startups in general, that would suggest a connection.

And that's only one reason why I'd like a baseline; there are many more. Throwing out a single percentage without comparisons for context is just plain bad statistics. It is not meant to inform, merely to persuade.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#134
post #6

Are the other 22 % certain junk? The effects fundamentally do not seem offsetable. The offset industry is based on an idea that you can remove greenhouse impacts from your process without a significant impact on prices, and a corporation is somehow better positioned to donate to a fund than a consumer is. That's bullshit.

They premise is basically a violation of the law of thermodynamics and market forces. Any process making this viable, would quickly replace any other energy source available?

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#135
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In principle, offsetting CO2 production seems like a sensible idea to me. Someone willing to extract CO2 from the air and store it in some rock forever can indeed offset some carbon you emitted. The reality is that nobody is doing that - instead the fraudulent offsetting companies are getting paid to do something they wanted to do anyway - for example planting trees for papermaking, or just plain-old lying about what…

Carbon offsets always seemed to me to be a way of ameliorating one's guilt of one's pollution. If recycling rarely actually happened, I figured that carbon offsets tended not to happen, too. We do not even really have the technology to do it on a large scale. People were really indulgences (heh, literally, they could continue to indulge in polluting instead of doing the hard to work to figure out to live differently)…

> Carbon offsets always seemed to me to be a way of ameliorating one's guilt of one's pollution.

This is actually very common.

Here me out - EVs are not bad and in most scenarios produce less emissions than ICE vehicles. But they are similarly used to displace guilt about emissions.

EVs don’t eliminate emissions as some assume. They just displace them further up the supply chain. And if electricity is generated primarily by coal (which is the case in China, for example, which boasts about EVs) then it actually increases emissions. EVs aren’t inherently cleaner, but they do inherently hide emissions.

This does not describe every proponent of EVs but it does describe too many proponents of EVs.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting fossil fuel sourced carbon permanently out of the atmospheric carbon cycle with currently available tech (i.e. planting trees doesn't work because they burn and decompose) is an absurdity. Perhaps the best you can do is mitigate warming factors, like investing in burning previously vented methane, but that might be risking triggering a Cobra Effect, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive#The_origina…

> at least as much energy as we got in aggregate from all our fossil fuel burning human civilization captured over the past century to the project. We're several orders of magnitude in renewable and nuclear generation fleets away from that possibility. Several orders of magnitude? That's not right at all. If we more or less stopped emitting carbon, and devoted just 2x our current renewable and nuclear production to c…

> devoted just 2x our current renewable and nuclear production to capture, paying "as much energy as we got", we'd be removing it 1/3 as fast as we emitted it, which is a pretty good pace.

Some quick and dirty back of the envelope math.

According to this source, https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption, oil, coal, and nat gas, the big culprits, currently account for 137,000 TWh of energy use per year, or 76.5%. Bump that up to 82.5% if you include traditional biomass burning.

So, only 31,000 TWh per year come from renewables and nuclear. One third of that is hydropower, which is largely tapped out and certainly doesn't have exponential growth potential. So, we currently have about 20,000 TWh of renewable and nuclear generation capacity as a civilization, compared to 179,000 total consumption.

So, just to maintain current civilization standards without fossil fuels, we need to grow our renewable nuclear fleet by a little less than a single order of magnitude. Does it make sense to devote any of our renewable fleet to renewing atmospheric carbon if we are still emitting any of it? Seems like the more prudent action would be to use 100% of renewables to decrease emissions in the first place, because emission/extraction is always going to be an inefficient process.

Now, this doesn't account for the fact that most humans in the world are still incredibly energy poor. Your refrigerator uses more energy than the total use of the average person in Nigeria, which is expected to become more populous than China by the end of the century. Let's say that we agree that US levels of energy consumption is too high to target, and we would like a world where everyone has a European standard of living. The average European consumes about 38 MWh per year, US is double at 79 MWh, https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-energy-use.

This means by the year 2100, human civilization would need control of about 400,000 TWh of energy to accommodate an expected population of 10.4 billion humans. Therefore, we need a 20x increase in the renewable and nuclear fleet just to serve all humans with a good standard of living without any fossil fuel consumption.

Now that we have people taken care of and we're not adding more carbon, we can start talking about removing carbon.

Back to the first data source, human civilization has currently consumed an aggregate of 5,341,110 TWh of fossil fuels since 1800. Assuming carbon capture can be 100% efficient (preposterous) meaning it takes an equal amount of energy to remove the carbon as we got when we burned it, then we would have to devote an equal amount of renewable energy watt hours to the project. Dedicated our current fleet of renewables, that would take 178 years. Let's assume that by the year 2100, we have 100,000 TWh of excess energy and we somehow have the political will to devote 20% of collective energy to the reversal project. That would take 53 years to remove the carbon added as of 2023 assuming 100% efficiency, and not accounting for the growing rate of carbon emissions until 100% carbon free. Given the fact we've been way overly generous with efficiency assumptions, we're looking at a project that takes multiple centuries.

So to your initial point, I am wrong. Not really several orders of magnitude, but between 1 and 2 orders of magnitude even in the most generous case where we don't make social progress eliminating poverty and just maintain the status quo. And that's assuming the crisis isn't that urgent and we can lazily take on the order of centuries to remove all the carbon we've added.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#137

Three years ago I entered this business as I saw some opportunity. After about a year I got out because everything there was fraud. F R A U D. >most of them exaggerate climate benefits and underestimate the potential harm [...] >projects were categorised as “likely junk or worthless” due to one or more “fundamental failing” that undermines its alleged emissions offsetting power [...] Stop trying to disguise these ope…

Step 1 - buy something “full of carbon” or potentially “making carbon” (like a future cow farm) Step 2 - get paid for “offsets” not to do that thing that you never did

I heard stories of companies like this doing things like buying old coal power plants that were slated to be closed, closing them, then claiming they had reduced emissions by 1 coal powerplant's worth. To give people an idea of what the kinds of fraud looked like.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at least as much energy as we got in aggregate from all our fossil fuel burning human civilization captured over the past century to the project. We're several orders of magnitude in renewable and nuclear generation fleets away from that possibility. Several orders of magnitude? That's not right at all. If we more or less stopped emitting carbon, and devoted just 2x our current renewable and nuclear production to c…

> devoted just 2x our current renewable and nuclear production to capture, paying "as much energy as we got", we'd be removing it 1/3 as fast as we emitted it, which is a pretty good pace. Some quick and dirty back of the envelope math. According to this source, https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption , oil, coal, and nat gas, the big culprits, currently account for 137,000 TWh of energy use per year…

Assuming carbon capture can be 100% efficient (preposterous) meaning it takes an equal amount of energy to remove the carbon as we got when we burned it, then we would have to devote an equal amount of renewable energy watt hours to the project.

The rest of your analysis is quite correct but this is too pessimistic. You don't have to turn carbon dioxide back into fuel to get it out of the atmosphere. You only have to turn it into a stable non-gaseous compound, like magnesium carbonate. That can be done by crushing silicate rocks rich in alkaline earth metals, like olivine, and spreading them in coastal areas to get exposure to water and wave action. The magnesium silicate exchanges with carbonic acid to form magnesium carbonate and silica. The chemical reaction is thermodynamically spontaneous. The energy input to crush the rocks is just to accelerate the kinetics of weathering by exposing more surface area.

It's an accelerated version of the geological carbon cycle that naturally removes CO2 from the atmosphere:

http://butane.chem.uiuc.edu/pshapley/Environmental/L29/2.htm...

See section 7.2.2 of this IPCC report "Mineral carbonation and industrial uses of carbon dioxide" for the chemistry and thermodynamic considerations:

https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/03/srccs_chapte...

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#140
I want to eat this cake, but I'm already overweight.

But no problem, the baker tells me. As it happens, he was planning to put out another cake with the same amount of calories tomorrow, which I'd surely eat too. But if I pay him a dollar, he'll hold off doing that and hand me a fancy certificate documenting his intention.

I can then take the negative calories that spring from my act of not-eating the hypothetical future cake and use them to offset the positive calories of the actual cake right in front of me - and in the end, the cake will have net zero calories and I can finally eat in piece. Yum!

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