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Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

economist.com

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Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#41

Post by Aurornis »

badcppdev wrote: post #8

This is sad: "years spent campaigning to get doctors to take the illnesses seriously." It's like that saying, "Capitalism: The worst economic system, except for all the others". Our medical system where we rely on individual doctors for primary care is really flawed but it's better than any alternatives that we have (or that we can afford anyway)

The problem is more complicated than it sounds. The official treatment protocol for PANDAS is to perform a throat culture for strep and then treat with antibiotics if the result is positive. (Source: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/pandas ). In other words, it's the same as normal treatment protocols for strep.

The idea of PANDAS from occult (aka hidden, not producing positive test results) strep infections is less proven and considered rare, although it is mentioned in official treatment recommendations such as those above.

The problem providers face is that some parents will read about PANDAS on the internet and assume it is the explanation for their child's problems, despite having negative throat culture. They jump from doctor to doctor demanding antibiotic treatment despite the negative test results, guided largely by their internet research. It's not hard to find PANDAS parent groups on Facebook or Reddit where someone can post vague symptoms and a chorus of group members will response "sounds like PANDAS".

The difficult part is that for some of these patients, PANDAS might be the right diagnosis. However, once a diagnosis becomes a cult favorite on the internet doctors get inundated with parents demanding antibiotics because their Facebook groups told them that's what their child needs.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#42

Post by dylan604 »

all2 wrote: post #21
thenerdhead wrote: post #16

> Dr Pittenger says it is now clear that covid-19 infections can trigger psychosis, fatigue and other neuro-psychiatric symptoms. A misbehaving immune system is thought to be the culprit. The idea that schizophrenia may, at least sometimes, likewise be an auto-immune disorder is also under investigation. Until I got long covid(generally recovered now after 2 years), I couldn't comprehend this idea. I felt like I was…

I remember reading awhile back about a study that showed people with the flu are generally more social while the virus is spreading. There's also those nasty sugar cravings that seem to pop up when people diet, and it may be that the microbiome drives those cravings. It's a curious thing to think that the bugs in our bodies may drive our impulses.

the idea that a virus can change the behavior of the host to make it more likely to spread is one of those things that's beyond creepy. lots of scifi based on this, and the ones that are more subtle are much more effective than getting bit by a zombie trope.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#43

Post by Aurornis »

coldtea wrote: post #10
badcppdev wrote: post #8

This is sad: "years spent campaigning to get doctors to take the illnesses seriously." It's like that saying, "Capitalism: The worst economic system, except for all the others". Our medical system where we rely on individual doctors for primary care is really flawed but it's better than any alternatives that we have (or that we can afford anyway)

> Our medical system where we rely on individual doctors for primary care is really flawed but it's better than any alternatives that we have (or that we can afford anyway) The US one I presume? Says who? Based on what metric? We can, and other countries have, do much better. That this parent "is “exhausted” by years spent campaigning to get doctors to take the illnesses seriously" doesn't say much. It's not like she…

> The US one I presume? Says who? Based on what metric? We can, and other countries have, do much better.

The article is about UK doctors not recognizing PANDAS as a real illness.

They even quote one doctor who refused to treat "an American illness".

The US NIH has a page on PANDAS and our (US) diagnostic and treatment recommendations here: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/pandas

If you wanted an example of "US healthcare bad" then this is not it. The article is about UK doctors not recognizing a condition and the activities in Parliament to address the situation.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#44

Post by diogenes4 »

thenerdhead wrote: post #16

> Dr Pittenger says it is now clear that covid-19 infections can trigger psychosis, fatigue and other neuro-psychiatric symptoms. A misbehaving immune system is thought to be the culprit. The idea that schizophrenia may, at least sometimes, likewise be an auto-immune disorder is also under investigation. Until I got long covid(generally recovered now after 2 years), I couldn't comprehend this idea. I felt like I was…

> It makes you honestly question the idea of freewill.

Hell two months in any psychology course will have you questioning that. We are truly biological beings first and rational agents second.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#45

Post by tetris11 »

iandanforth wrote: post #18

Have a friend with a PANDAS child. Really hard to even hear about. Total personality change, constant battles, even when it gets better the fear of reoccurrence. Truly awful.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PANDAS

> Pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorders associated with streptococcal infections (PANDAS) is a controversial hypothetical diagnosis for a subset of children with rapid onset of obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) or tic disorders.

> The proposed link between infection and these disorders is that an autoimmune reaction to infection produces antibodies that interfere with basal ganglia function, causing symptom exacerbations, and this autoimmune response results in a broad range of neuropsychiatric symptoms.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#46

Post by dylan604 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #39
all2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading awhile back about a study that showed people with the flu are generally more social while the virus is spreading. There's also those nasty sugar cravings that seem to pop up when people diet, and it may be that the microbiome drives those cravings. It's a curious thing to think that the bugs in our bodies may drive our impulses.

> remember reading awhile back about a study that showed people with the flu are generally more social while the virus is spreading. Am I an idiot or is this clearly non-causal?

does seem weird as the flu usually makes me sore and not want to move at all.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#47

Post by sp332 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #39
all2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading awhile back about a study that showed people with the flu are generally more social while the virus is spreading. There's also those nasty sugar cravings that seem to pop up when people diet, and it may be that the microbiome drives those cravings. It's a curious thing to think that the bugs in our bodies may drive our impulses.

> remember reading awhile back about a study that showed people with the flu are generally more social while the virus is spreading. Am I an idiot or is this clearly non-causal?

To clarify, the the claim is that individuals are more sociable when they are infected with the flu virus.

These results show that there is an immediate active behavioral response to infection before the expected onset of symptoms or sickness behavior.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20816312/

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#48

Post by pixl97 »

thenerdhead wrote: post #16

> Dr Pittenger says it is now clear that covid-19 infections can trigger psychosis, fatigue and other neuro-psychiatric symptoms. A misbehaving immune system is thought to be the culprit. The idea that schizophrenia may, at least sometimes, likewise be an auto-immune disorder is also under investigation. Until I got long covid(generally recovered now after 2 years), I couldn't comprehend this idea. I felt like I was…

>It makes you honestly question the idea of freewill.

Not eating and getting low blood sugar can much more simply answer the question of "Do I have free will, or am I a subject of my internal chemical reactions".

Or, much more simply stated "You're not you when you are hungry".

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#49

Post by fragmede »

jeroen wrote: post #30
thenerdhead wrote: post #16

> Dr Pittenger says it is now clear that covid-19 infections can trigger psychosis, fatigue and other neuro-psychiatric symptoms. A misbehaving immune system is thought to be the culprit. The idea that schizophrenia may, at least sometimes, likewise be an auto-immune disorder is also under investigation. Until I got long covid(generally recovered now after 2 years), I couldn't comprehend this idea. I felt like I was…

Did you learn anything that helped in your recovery? I'm 1.5 years in and nowhere near a full recovery yet.

I'm in the US, so this advice is only applicable there, but LabCorp will test your blood for you without a doctor's note. I had to route around my doctor because I caught covid in the initial wave and no one knew what was going on. Your doctor may be able to help you more these days. Anyway, so I got my blood tested for all sorts of stuff, fixed deficiencies that came up, then leaned heavily on specialists to get medication to fix my symptoms. Beta blockers/other for my heart palpitations/other issues from a cardiologist, various inhalers for my lung issues from a pulmonologist, a whole slew of medications and treatments from a psychiatrist. And so much help from my friends. At the worst of it, it was exhausting walking from my bedroom to the kitchen, and I live in a small apartment. It did take years, but eventually I got there.

Learning to never push myself, because that would cause me to relapse and spend a week in bed. They have a name for it now, but that's the biggest thing that helped, really.

Hope you get a full recovery soon!

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