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Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

charlietanksley.net

31–40 of 49 posts

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#31
I have been using Lout occasionally. It is a perfectly capable typesetting systems, with both advantages and disadvantages over TeX/LaTeX/ConTeXt/etc. The average user will probably want to stick with TeX and friends, but there are situations where Lout is a good alternative.

The primary advantages are its very small size and its tight integration with PostScript. The small size means that is very easily deployed (such as when you need something to generate documents); the tight integration with PostScript means that it is relatively easy (assuming you know a bit of PostScript) to augment the output with graphics (I have even, for example, sometimes used Lout to generate EPS diagrams to embed in LaTeX documents). Much easier than using Metafun, for example.

The main disadvantages are that it cannot do everything that the TeX engine does and that it has relatively few contributors.

For example, there's no way (other than manually inserting column breaks) to automatically generate balanced columns. And while non-rectangular paragraphs are possible in principle (such as for drop capitals or flowing text around images), this generally requires sacrificing hyphenation (and can be non-trivial for the non-expert user).

Lout also has fewer people contributing to/using it, so it does not have the rich ecosystem of TeX and friends (e.g., while you can use it to generate slides, there are more and more powerful LaTeX styles available). Integration with bibliography tools and sites (that generally expect/produce BibTeX format) can be another matter.

With respect to typesetting quality, it uses the same line-breaking algorithm as standard TeX; it does not have the microtypography features of pdfTeX. For typesetting anything mathematics (beyond basic math), TeX is generally superior (which should not be surprising, given the effort Knuth put into getting that right).

Also, while modifying/creating LaTeX packages these days is not exactly child's play, Lout poses some challenges of its own; its functional typesetting language (used both to describe the content and how that content is laid out via so-called galleys) can be difficult to grasp for a novice.

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#32
post #12

I love Latex but it (or more specifically TeX) is showing its age. It's perfect for writing a paper given a good template but writing and debugging these templates (.cls, .sty) is unnecessarily hard. For my job (in academia), I have to update such Latex templates on a monthly basis and always end up looking at the current improvements for Latex. This updating task involves not 'writing' in Latex but 'programming' in…

There are a lot of alternatives for the easy stuff. TeX makes the harder stuff like bibliographies, cross references, figure and equation numbering, indices and aligning equations relatively easy. As a mathematician, I would need to see the equivalent of "Math into LaTeX" before I would even consider switching.

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#33
post #12

I love Latex but it (or more specifically TeX) is showing its age. It's perfect for writing a paper given a good template but writing and debugging these templates (.cls, .sty) is unnecessarily hard. For my job (in academia), I have to update such Latex templates on a monthly basis and always end up looking at the current improvements for Latex. This updating task involves not 'writing' in Latex but 'programming' in…

\rant{I think it's funny that you say this, because I was just remarking to someone the other day that the primary way I've seen TeX and its little forest friends age is that it's become rather unwieldy IN SPITE OF the fact that the hardware it's running on now is far more than an order of magnitude faster. In college, I was typesetting my work in PlainTeX (I never did like LaTeX, but obviously I had it available) on…

I haven't looked into why TeX distributions (looking at you TeX Live) are so big these days, because it mostly doesn't matter. I suspect that I could take almost everything I write today and typeset it on your Amiga without too many problems.

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#34
These days I do most of my LaTeXing as an export from org-mode in emacs. Org-mode allows me to use convenient markup notation, and uses sensible defaults when exporting to LaTeX.

It keeps me happy, especially when exporting slides to Beamer, LaTeX based presentation tool.

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#35
I think inventing typesetting languages that compile to TeX might partially solve the problem and make the whole typesetting experience more pleasant, since TeX is already a capable typesetting system, and has a rich ecosystem, and TeX engines are already capable of producing high-quality documents, but the hard part is writing TeX documents. So what haml is to HTML, or say CoffeScript to javascript, a new language could be to TeX.

so inventing new, easier to use typesetting languages that use TeX as an underlying system might be a good solution..

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#36
post #20
post #12

I love Latex but it (or more specifically TeX) is showing its age. It's perfect for writing a paper given a good template but writing and debugging these templates (.cls, .sty) is unnecessarily hard. For my job (in academia), I have to update such Latex templates on a monthly basis and always end up looking at the current improvements for Latex. This updating task involves not 'writing' in Latex but 'programming' in…

I'm curious. Why do you need to update templates so frequently? I would have expected academia to have a fairly static, albeit perhaps large, set of templates. E.g., at most one for each journal in your field, one for each conference, one for each publisher, with any of these only changing rarely.

That is correct for the general style. However, then you have to hunt for packages for pseudocode, nicer tables, diagrams, pdf bookmarks and hyperlinks, subfigures, etc.

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#37
post #34

These days I do most of my LaTeXing as an export from org-mode in emacs. Org-mode allows me to use convenient markup notation, and uses sensible defaults when exporting to LaTeX. It keeps me happy, especially when exporting slides to Beamer, LaTeX based presentation tool.

Off-topic: Generating slides from an outliner like Org-mode produces those ugly bullet points en mass, doesn't it? The upside is of course, that they are easy and fast to generate. Why do you need that?

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#38
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to its age, there is a massive codebase in TeX/LaTeX. There is literally a package for everything. It would be a massive undertaking to replace the TeX system by something that isn't downwards compatible. And since the vast majority of LaTeX users don't get to see much of the underlying mess the pressure to do so is rather small.

Not necessarily. New people in academia learn LaTeX all the time, and if more students start getting upset about having to learn it while there's an alternative that, while lacking a zillion of packages, is easy to use and just works right out of the box... then I don't see how professors would be able to hold back the tide. I've seen engineers write papers in Microsoft Word, though they're a minority. And then there…

Students have always been upset about learning Latex. However, after the first or second paper they realize how much trouble Latex is saving them and become fans for life. I don't see any other system offering the same advantages.

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. New people in academia learn LaTeX all the time, and if more students start getting upset about having to learn it while there's an alternative that, while lacking a zillion of packages, is easy to use and just works right out of the box... then I don't see how professors would be able to hold back the tide. I've seen engineers write papers in Microsoft Word, though they're a minority. And then there…

Students have always been upset about learning Latex. However, after the first or second paper they realize how much trouble Latex is saving them and become fans for life. I don't see any other system offering the same advantages.

Around here I've seen a considerable drop-off in TeX fans over the past 4-5 years, with more students opting for Word. It didn't used to be a viable option, but now many conferences (outside a few very-math-heavy areas) offer both LaTeX and Word stylesheets and let you choose, and Word has improved in a few key areas, mainly citation support and auto-hyphenation. Zotero users also seem to like the Word integration. Figure placement still sucks, but figure placement isn't really TeX's strong suit either.

I personally still prefer TeX, but the gap is smaller than it was 10 years ago. The auto-hyphenation is probably the single biggest change, since the easy way to spot 2-column conference papers done in Word used to be the horrible whitespace in justified columns caused by its inability to break words. (This heuristic still words sometimes, because auto-hyphenation isn't on by default, and not all authors know about it or use it.)

Re: Lout: An alternative to LaTeX?

#40
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

\rant{I think it's funny that you say this, because I was just remarking to someone the other day that the primary way I've seen TeX and its little forest friends age is that it's become rather unwieldy IN SPITE OF the fact that the hardware it's running on now is far more than an order of magnitude faster. In college, I was typesetting my work in PlainTeX (I never did like LaTeX, but obviously I had it available) on…

I haven't looked into why TeX distributions (looking at you TeX Live) are so big these days, because it mostly doesn't matter. I suspect that I could take almost everything I write today and typeset it on your Amiga without too many problems.

You don't know why TL is so big? Because it includes everything on CTAN that is compatible with DFSG. CTAN is an enormous archive containing numerous packages that do the same thing slightly different. How many packages are there like booktabs/tabulary/tabularyx/longtable etc? How many enumitem like packages are there?

What is so confusing?

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