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How (not) to apply for a software job

benhoyt.com

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Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#141

Post by shrikant »

john-radio wrote: post #135
sjducb wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea you 100% need a skills section that lists every technology you’ve ever worked with. I tried taking it off and got no interviews with that CV version. Someone in HR or a recruiter will match up the technologies on the job post with your CV and only put you through if you list most of the ones they need.

I never know how granular to go with those.

It's very annoying -- I just concluded a job search recently after being made redundant, and what I found frustrating in some places that rejected me was weird stuff like not having enough experience with terraform/git/Github Actions etc.

But I've specifically called out the use of infrastructure as code, version control, and CI/CD at various points in my CV! I genuinely dislike the buzzword bingo CVs that I've vetted when hiring for roles but I try to keep an open mind about the actual experience that the candidate is portraying -- I guess it's too much to ask for the same open-mindedness in other hiring managers?

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#142

Post by borplk »

tsak wrote: post #16

I had this happen with an applicant recently, where they fed our job description into ChatGPT to generate a cover letter which was very non-descript and flowery, quoting phrases from the job spec verbatim which made it sound rather insane. Trying to give the candidate a chance, I asked them why they had a applied to the position in the hopes that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest. Al…

This is a natural side-effect of both sides "cheating" to the point that genuine and legitimate efforts are punished and "gaming the system" is encouraged and rewarded. Come to think of it I think it's basically a variant of "tragedy of the commons". In the sense that some actors exploit the weaknesses of the market due to their self-interest and as a result disrupt the signal to noise ratio of the market and damage it for the other participants.

Once this exceeds a certain amount it will accelerate because more and more people reluctantly start gaming the system to avoid the penalty.

The more automation and AI and bulk/mass stuff is thrown into it the worse it will get (since you get to put a multiplier behind any bad behaviour). When it was slower and more expensive to participate in the job market it was better.

You can find parallels to this in other areas such as the dating market.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#143

Post by smugma »

silvestrov wrote: post #33

When do employers get to "how to properly write a job advertisement"? All these articles are only about what workers should do, not how companies fail again and again at writing a good description of the job. E.g. "Describe your experience with software operations and running services in production" is a really bad question as it is too open ended and leads to name dropping. Asking for "engaging answers" judges the p…

We use Textio to help remove bias from job postings. It’s not great but helps with low hanging fruit. Just being aware of it helps avoid a lot of bias e.g. don’t write in tropes of crushing code.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#144

Post by bluenomatterwho »

I used the new AI assisted LinkedIn summary and it had all the usual buzzwords I can't stand either but, alongside things like company 'culture' (we're a family here) it looked to me to be the kind of vapid and saccharine paragraph that presents the corporate image we 'want' to present. I thought hey, at least I didn't have to write it.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#145

Post by okaleniuk »

I lead a small R&D team in Materialise's Kyiv office. Due to very demanding requirements (we need someone who can do math, write code, and communicate with other people reasonably well, often at the same time), I usually have to read somewhere between 50 to 100 resumes per hire. And one thing is absolutely certain - there is an inverse correlation between the quality of the resume and the quality of the candidate.

People in high demand don't have, nor should they have, the skill to write resumes. That's the skill that people who can't get a job naturally develop.

The other thing, a bad resume often protects you from bad employers. Take this passage from the post: "When candidates first started (obviously) using AI for their applications, I would rule them out for “cheating”" - that's... incredibly stupid. You don't want to work for or with stupid people so I think all the ruled-out people dodged a bullet here.

One reason I joined Materialise was that the recruiter used my LinkedIn profile at the interview instead of asking for a resume. Didn't waste their own time, didn't waste mine. That's smart. I want to work with smart people. I'm in.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#146

Post by Kegenek »

benhoyt wrote: post #45
silvestrov wrote: post #33

When do employers get to "how to properly write a job advertisement"? All these articles are only about what workers should do, not how companies fail again and again at writing a good description of the job. E.g. "Describe your experience with software operations and running services in production" is a really bad question as it is too open ended and leads to name dropping. Asking for "engaging answers" judges the p…

> When benhoyt says "In short, don’t be generic" then at least he could take his own advice into account when writing questions. I actually agree with this: I think several of our questions could be improved and made more specific. On the other hand, we do want them to be somewhat open-ended so the writer has to think and can put their best foot forward (or not). I don't write these questions, but I'll try to provide…

Wait am I tripping or aren’t you benhoyt? Kinda new to (at least commenting) on here.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#147

Post by JohnFen »

badcppdev wrote: post #126
dkdbejwi383 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't be generic" applies to the employer with regards to renumeration. "Competitive" means nothing, give me a numerical range. This avoids a waste of time on both parties' behalf.

It would be nice if they mentioned anything at all rather than "Competitive" How about, "Top Quartile for software engineers in the UK market according to itjobswatch.co.uk" Or, "Above average according to Glassdoor for San Portland, Georgia"

> It would be nice if they mentioned anything at all rather than "Competitive

Agreed. "Competitive salary" means nothing. They may as well simply not mention it at all.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#148

Post by JohnFen »

sjducb wrote: post #118
pacMakaveli wrote: post #82

This article is so frustrating. Get yourself on the market before spewing this shit. I recently been on the lookout for a new job and my first CV was personal. Full of my own words and description of what I did in the last 10+ years as a software engineer. I'm a bit biased but it was a really good CV. That got me 0 fucking offers. ZERO I rewrote my CV based on some google suggestions and with ChatGPT. I got through n…

Yea you 100% need a skills section that lists every technology you’ve ever worked with. I tried taking it off and got no interviews with that CV version. Someone in HR or a recruiter will match up the technologies on the job post with your CV and only put you through if you list most of the ones they need.

Yes. I even break mine up into two sections: things I've used in the last year, and things I've used ever.

By "used", I don't mean that I touched it once. I mean that I have used it enough to consider myself competent with it.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#149

Post by JohnFen »

tsak wrote: post #8
daniel-s wrote: post #6

Isn't Canonical famous for having one of the worst candidate selection processes? Also, there's a lot of superstition and nonsense about how to succeed at interviews and job applications.

I once applied for a job at Canonical. This was their process (roughly two years ago)... Thank you for applying for Software Engineer. The application process has several stages: - Initial screening (done) - Personal essay (this stage) - Culture interview - Standardised aptitude and personality tests - General interviews - Recruitment screen - Technical assessment - Role-specific interviews - Hiring manager interview…

That's insane. But at least they tell you the process. I particularly appreciate them mentioning "personality tests" because that's a level of BS that I'm personally not willing to engage with. Telling me about it up front warns me that I would be a poor fit at the company, and so I can avoid wasting the time of both of us.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#150

Post by JohnFen »

r4indeer wrote: post #74
tsak wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once applied for a job at Canonical. This was their process (roughly two years ago)... Thank you for applying for Software Engineer. The application process has several stages: - Initial screening (done) - Personal essay (this stage) - Culture interview - Standardised aptitude and personality tests - General interviews - Recruitment screen - Technical assessment - Role-specific interviews - Hiring manager interview…

I'm sorry, a 10-stage application with at least 5 different interviews? How many weeks is this going to take? This feels like FAANG-level recruitment. Am I so out of touch to expect an application, one interview and maybe a technical assessment for most IT/CompSci jobs? Wouldn't the probationary period be way more effective to see if you fit into the team/company/culture/etc.?

> Am I so out of touch to expect an application, one interview and maybe a technical assessment for most IT/CompSci jobs?

No, you're not out of touch. Most companies are more like this (although my experience is that most companies will do two interviews -- one that is more social and meant to measure "fit" and one more technical.)

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