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FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

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Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#71

Post by deltarholamda »

exabrial wrote: post #62
cddotdotslash wrote: post #4

One of the biggest arguments I remember being made back when net neutrality was a hot topic was that ISPs would bundle and sell specific websites as tiered plans. Infographics like this one [1] were shared widely. Has this happened in the US? I’ve definitely seen ISPs start to apply data caps and throttling, but haven’t seen the aforementioned packaging (at least with the major ISPs). I ask because this is one of the…

No it hasn’t. We’re fighting a boogieman. Instead, we’re going to do is further entrench local monopolies, since only the large guys will be able to afford to comply with regulation. You literally can’t force corporate Americas to act beneficial to their consumers of incentives are misaligned. It takes literal FDA-levels of regulation to accomplish that, and even that has failures while generally making the entire pr…

Like many government regulations, it has a great name, "Net Neutrality," which, when it is actually implemented, will do much more than make the 'Net neutral.

Maybe, at first, it will have something to do with "you can't throttle Web services," but it will morph into "you MUST throttle this particular Web service, it spreads disinformation, which makes the Net less neutral."

It is what always happens. It is more reliable than gravity.

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#72

Post by cptskippy »

josephg wrote: post #70
cptskippy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the guise to justify the caps but Comcast was setting caps around the data usage of someone streaming Netflix. The overage charges were ridiculous as well, if you used 2x your data cap it would cost you 100x your regular bill. I had some Nest cameras in addition to Streaming and ended up taking them down because I kept going over.

In Australia my first broadband internet connection worked like that - though when you went over, your bandwidth was heavily throttled until the end of the month unless you upgraded your plan for the month. As inconvenient as it is, honestly I think data caps are fair pricing. The load difference between a light internet user and a heavy user is orders of magnitude of capacity for the ISP to deal with. Having a flat…

The rub is that ISPs, at least in the US, do not charge a fair rate for data and under provision the service because it can compete with their other service offerings. Consumption is a huge problem until you subscribe to their triple play packages, all IP based, then it magically goes away.

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#73

Post by _chu1 »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #51
woeirua wrote: post #19

It really seems unnecessary at this point. Now that we have satellite based internet and 4G/5G are legit competitors to regular wire based ISPs it just seems that the market has solved this by itself. Sure, Comcast _could_ still start doing prioritization. But honestly I’d be a lot more worried about how Google/Meta/Microsoft are using your data for GenAI.

> It really seems unnecessary at this point. Now that we have satellite based internet and 4G/5G are legit competitors to regular wire based ISPs None of those things compete with wireline, on either performance or price. Satellite internet is 2x-10x more expensive and requires expensive equipment. It has significant lag and greatly reduced upload. 5G speeds exist in small, limited zones. Cellular internet in general…

I actually get badass 5G speeds in the middle of nowhere rural Alabama with T-Mobile, the only issue is it being a CGNAT preventing me from playing most PS3 games online.

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#74

Post by throwaway092623 »

JohnTHaller wrote: post #6
cddotdotslash wrote: post #4

One of the biggest arguments I remember being made back when net neutrality was a hot topic was that ISPs would bundle and sell specific websites as tiered plans. Infographics like this one [1] were shared widely. Has this happened in the US? I’ve definitely seen ISPs start to apply data caps and throttling, but haven’t seen the aforementioned packaging (at least with the major ISPs). I ask because this is one of the…

We have gotten it, but with services not websites. Mobile providers will sell you an "Unlimited" data plan that throttles everything after 25GB a month. Streaming Spotify and Apple Music won't count against that soft data cap. Streaming other music services will count against it. Video streaming over YouTube, Netflix, etc is capped at 480p levels. If you pay an additional monthly fee, you get upgraded to "Unlimited P…

This doesn't have anything to do with the repeal of the FCC's net neutrality. You can see from the appeals court case[1], page 16 and 17, that mobile networks were exempt from the anti-discrimination rules:

> The anti-discrimination rule applied only to fixed broadband. Id. According to the Commission, mobile broadband warranted different treatment because, among other things, “the mobile ecosystem is experiencing very rapid innovation and change,”

I have to agree with the other posts. The disaster scenarios we were told would happen didn't happen. Now people are pointing to things completely unconnected to the repeal of net neutrality as evidence that it caused problems.

I uncritically trusted the claims of activists when the debate first started, but in the years since I've begun to feel foolish for doing so. It seems clear a lot of them are peddling misinformation. This whole thing has lead me to question some of the extreme doomsday scenarios people are pushing in other areas as well.

[1] https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/3F95E491...

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#75

Post by bilsbie »

I’m pro net neutrality AFAIK.

BUT We owe it to ourselves to go and look at all the fearmongering they were putting out about ending net neutrality and figuring out why it didn’t come to pass.

And hopefully learning from that for future policy debates.

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#76

Post by [deleted] »

cddotdotslash wrote: post #4

One of the biggest arguments I remember being made back when net neutrality was a hot topic was that ISPs would bundle and sell specific websites as tiered plans. Infographics like this one [1] were shared widely. Has this happened in the US? I’ve definitely seen ISPs start to apply data caps and throttling, but haven’t seen the aforementioned packaging (at least with the major ISPs). I ask because this is one of the…

[deleted]

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#77

Post by thehappypm »

viraptor wrote: post #36
thehappypm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UPS certainly does care, a Gucci shirt is going to have more insurance, maybe require a signature.

UPS doesn't care. The sender/receiver care and may want to use the insurance option. But UPS knows the value / type of passage, not the contents.

UPS literally asks you what it is! They ask if its a weapon, has lithium batteries, etc. This analogy is bad.

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#78

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

acheron wrote: post #50
stuckinhell wrote: post #16

Do we need net neutrality ? I didn't even know it was gone. My internet is the same as ever

It was always a con. A regulation had been in place since 2015, they repealed it in 2017, it never mattered. Some politicians tricked people into screaming about it, and I’m sure they were able to get some fundraising because of the screaming.

> It was always a con. A regulation had been in place since 2015, they repealed it in 2017, it never mattered.

This sounds like one of the pregurgitated anti-neutrality mantra. Specifically, the one that ignores the many growing trends (caps, prioritization, purposeful peering congestion) before neutrality and how those trends mostly paused when neutrality was passed.

It also ignores what ISPs know - that not every administration has full-throated support for anti-consumer practices. That is, not every admin will provide the cover ISPs need to get consumers used to increasing mistreatment.

Better to keep the pause on consumer harms in place until a friendlier environment can be secured for the long term.

Meanwhile it's still safe screw consumers on other fronts. One is further entrenching ISP monopoly/duopoly positions by having lobbyists write state anti-munibroadband laws for paid legislators to pass.

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#79

Post by cddotdotslash »

ericmay wrote: post #67
cddotdotslash wrote: post #4

One of the biggest arguments I remember being made back when net neutrality was a hot topic was that ISPs would bundle and sell specific websites as tiered plans. Infographics like this one [1] were shared widely. Has this happened in the US? I’ve definitely seen ISPs start to apply data caps and throttling, but haven’t seen the aforementioned packaging (at least with the major ISPs). I ask because this is one of the…

If it never happened no harm in making sure it doesn’t happen either.

Sure, but the argument kind of loses merit, no? I remember the entire collective internet having site wide shutdowns, urging users to write to congress, etc. It was an extensive campaign that looped in many non technical folks to a very technical topic. You can only cry wolf like that a few times. If a similar campaign were to launch again, I’m almost certain it would fail to get the same mainstream support, especially because the “sky is falling” arguments made last time never came true (or at least not in the ways claimed). Lost credibility is hard to regain for the next time there truly is an existential crisis.

Re: FCC aims to reinstate net neutrality after us Democrats gain control of panel

#80

Post by mattnewton »

deltarholamda wrote: post #71
exabrial wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it hasn’t. We’re fighting a boogieman. Instead, we’re going to do is further entrench local monopolies, since only the large guys will be able to afford to comply with regulation. You literally can’t force corporate Americas to act beneficial to their consumers of incentives are misaligned. It takes literal FDA-levels of regulation to accomplish that, and even that has failures while generally making the entire pr…

Like many government regulations, it has a great name, "Net Neutrality," which, when it is actually implemented, will do much more than make the 'Net neutral. Maybe, at first, it will have something to do with "you can't throttle Web services," but it will morph into "you MUST throttle this particular Web service, it spreads disinformation, which makes the Net less neutral." It is what always happens. It is more reli…

What? How would regulation that “you must not throttle” lead to regulation for “you just throttle”? That makes no sense.
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