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How (not) to apply for a software job

benhoyt.com

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Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#51

Post by yakshaving_jgt »

voidnap wrote: post #37
yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an applicant can’t take the time to write a cover letter — and by “cover letter” I just mean an email that’s says here’s who I am and here’s what I like/do — why should the person hiring take the time to read what the applicant has copied and pasted to countless other employers?

> and by “cover letter” I just mean an email that’s says here’s who I am and here’s what I like/do This makes it sound like it would be something that would be "copied and pasted to countless other employers", just like a resume often is. But your last point made it sound like the applicant should invest more of their time than that. Conventionally, a good cover letter will be, at least to a degree, bespoke for that…

> Also, in the last several years, the impact of a good cover letter on getting an employment offer has diminished tremendously to the point that expect it of applicants isn't not respectful of their time.

Do you have anything to substantiate this claim?

I'm an employer and I read and respond to dozens of applications when I have an open position.

Usually when I receive an excellent application, the cover letter is roughly a paragraph in length. It isn't some lengthy, typeset file attachment with a mission statement or some other nonsense that would typically appear if you Googled "example cover letter".

My thoughts on ideal job applications closely mirror those described here[0].

[0]: https://signalvnoise.com/posts/1748-forget-the-resume-kill-o...

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#52

Post by vineyardmike »

rawbert wrote: post #42

Am I the only one who is not maintaining some kind of private Github repo? I am doing this job for the money and not the "coding fun". If I had the urge to code more, I would just do more hours in my regular job and get paid for that.

Plenty of people code for fun. Or choose to spend free time learning new things.

My job sometimes gets really boring and uninteresting. I can then scratch the itch by working on something for my own benefit and interest.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#53

Post by fakedang »

tsak wrote: post #16

I had this happen with an applicant recently, where they fed our job description into ChatGPT to generate a cover letter which was very non-descript and flowery, quoting phrases from the job spec verbatim which made it sound rather insane. Trying to give the candidate a chance, I asked them why they had a applied to the position in the hopes that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest. Al…

Honestly can you blame the candidate? Cover letters are barely read and make no difference in the overall selection process, except as a measure of elimination. For a job seeker, a discerning reader like you isn't a priority when he has to apply for 30 other jobs each day with a custom cover letter for each one.

I remember back in recruitment for banking, we simply used to look at stacks of hundreds, maybe thousands, of resumes. Judging HR folks' calibre, I doubt any of them had the time to read and filter through hundreds of cover letters to send the candidates over to us.

The cover letter is a thing of the past and should be eliminated altogether, simply because they have been rendered useless by employers themselves.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#54

Post by tsak »

emerongi wrote: post #38
tsak wrote: post #16

I had this happen with an applicant recently, where they fed our job description into ChatGPT to generate a cover letter which was very non-descript and flowery, quoting phrases from the job spec verbatim which made it sound rather insane. Trying to give the candidate a chance, I asked them why they had a applied to the position in the hopes that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest. Al…

> that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest Honest question: do people actually apply to jobs because it piques their interest? I pretty much just... need a job. I'll assess whether I want to join based almost purely on the team - if the team doesn't feel right, I'll skip. I don't apply for any jobs that require a cover letter. There's already enough information asymmetry and the effort…

I was only curious about _why_ the candidate had applied, given the ChatGPT generated cover letter. And a simple "because I am looking for a job and I think I match who you're looking for" would have sufficed in my opinion.

We actually don't require a cover letter in the first place. But if there is one, I'll read it of course.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#55

Post by jurassic »

The OP seems to think we should approach cover letters with the same care as if we were writing the great American novel. I disagree. They are meant to be somewhat canned, but a good one will efficiently direct the reviewers attention to the parts of your resume which are most relevant to the job and give the impression that you are specifically interested in the role. This is a task generative AI can accomplish with appropriate direction.

Obviously a generic prompt is going to get a generic response, but if you put in the work to create a prompt with adequate context and descriptions of what you specifically want then I've seen it produce output that is a reasonably good starting place. If you don't want it using overly flowery, weirdly deferential language and copying specific phrases from the job description then you can address that by including those instructions in the prompt: "Be concise. Use a confident and conversational tone, and avoid using specific phrases from the job description."

The problem is most people aren't going to spend 20-30 minutes creating a really customized prompt. But people who can't write a good prompt probably also weren't going to handcraft a great letter either. Mainly because of the investment of time it requires to create a fully bespoke piece of writing by hand for each place you want to apply.

Another thing I want to mention is that it seems that many people don't realize yet that if you don't like the initial output you can give feedback and ask for revisions. E.g. "Can you make it shorter", "Eliminate flowery adjectives", etc or even just "Can you show me some different variations of this letter?"

If you're writing a lot of these, it's worth putting in 20 minutes or so to make a prompt that creates output that doesn't suck but which you can easily reuse for other companies and roles with minor tweaks.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#56

Post by tsak »

baz00 wrote: post #40
tsak wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once applied for a job at Canonical. This was their process (roughly two years ago)... Thank you for applying for Software Engineer. The application process has several stages: - Initial screening (done) - Personal essay (this stage) - Culture interview - Standardised aptitude and personality tests - General interviews - Recruitment screen - Technical assessment - Role-specific interviews - Hiring manager interview…

Honestly if I had all those hoops to jump through I'd go and work somewhere else.

I actually didn't bother after they revealed their process to me.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#57

Post by fnands »

emerongi wrote: post #38
tsak wrote: post #16

I had this happen with an applicant recently, where they fed our job description into ChatGPT to generate a cover letter which was very non-descript and flowery, quoting phrases from the job spec verbatim which made it sound rather insane. Trying to give the candidate a chance, I asked them why they had a applied to the position in the hopes that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest. Al…

> that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest Honest question: do people actually apply to jobs because it piques their interest? I pretty much just... need a job. I'll assess whether I want to join based almost purely on the team - if the team doesn't feel right, I'll skip. I don't apply for any jobs that require a cover letter. There's already enough information asymmetry and the effort…

> Honest question: do people actually apply to jobs because it piques their interest?

Yes? I mean, I have to work somewhere, but I'd prefer to work on problems that I find interesting.

> I don't apply for any jobs that require a cover letter.

Where I work cover letters are optional, and give the candidate a bit of extra space to explain how their experience is relevant to the role.

I find this becomes less and less relevant with seniority: if you are an obvious fit with oodles of experience then the letter won't tell us much. But I find the letters pretty interesting for more junior candidates, or people coming in from different industries.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#58

Post by GoToRO »

All of this also aplies to job ads. What stood out for me was this:

"Don’t use flowery prose"

Most job ads out there are flowery prose.

So I went and checked their careers page. Surprised me to see that they tell you pretty clear what you will do on your job.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#59

Post by fakedang »

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #51
voidnap wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and by “cover letter” I just mean an email that’s says here’s who I am and here’s what I like/do This makes it sound like it would be something that would be "copied and pasted to countless other employers", just like a resume often is. But your last point made it sound like the applicant should invest more of their time than that. Conventionally, a good cover letter will be, at least to a degree, bespoke for that…

> Also, in the last several years, the impact of a good cover letter on getting an employment offer has diminished tremendously to the point that expect it of applicants isn't not respectful of their time. Do you have anything to substantiate this claim? I'm an employer and I read and respond to dozens of applications when I have an open position. Usually when I receive an excellent application, the cover letter is r…

As an anecdote (since we're in that territory here), we (major financial firm) were sent only resumes by the HR team to filter through and select candidates for interview. Going through my circle, it's the same for guys working in any company that's bigger than 50 employees.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#60

Post by [deleted] »

sdflhasjd wrote: post #48
emerongi wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest Honest question: do people actually apply to jobs because it piques their interest? I pretty much just... need a job. I'll assess whether I want to join based almost purely on the team - if the team doesn't feel right, I'll skip. I don't apply for any jobs that require a cover letter. There's already enough information asymmetry and the effort…

People who already have a job and are wanting to move will have reasons for wanting a shift (frequently besides just salary).

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