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How (not) to apply for a software job

benhoyt.com

31–40 of 174 posts

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#32
post #16

I had this happen with an applicant recently, where they fed our job description into ChatGPT to generate a cover letter which was very non-descript and flowery, quoting phrases from the job spec verbatim which made it sound rather insane. Trying to give the candidate a chance, I asked them why they had a applied to the position in the hopes that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest. Al…

"Well, it sounds like they've mastered the art of 'Ctrl+C' and 'Ctrl+V'!" *

* generated by ChatGPT itself

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#33
When do employers get to "how to properly write a job advertisement"? All these articles are only about what workers should do, not how companies fail again and again at writing a good description of the job.

E.g. "Describe your experience with software operations and running services in production" is a really bad question as it is too open ended and leads to name dropping. Asking for "engaging answers" judges the persons ability to write interesting novels instead of ability to solve (or avoid) problems.

Ditto with “How would you approach the design and implementation of new features for a production service?”. This question is way too generic and a proper answer could fill many books. There is so many different ways of doing this and depends a lot on what the software is used for. When benhoyt says "In short, don’t be generic" then at least he could take his own advice into account when writing questions.

An example response like "At Shopify [...] doubled click rate, from 15% to 27%" likely violate NDAs. I don't think companies like you to tell this to their competitor.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#35

Software engineers using tools like ChatGPT isn't really about trying to game the system. It's more about how out-of-touch the old-school job application process feels. We really just want to make things easier on ourselves. We're in a time where we're all about automating the boring stuff. Why? Because we can. The whole idea of writing a cover letter feels ancient. Honestly, when I'm shooting out a ton of job applic…

This is one of those “it depends” areas.

The author is talking about a fairly “classic” approach. I was a hiring manager for a long time, and had a similar (but more flexible) worldview. It may not age well.

I personally think that being able to leverage AI tools will be an important skillset, in the future, and would not disqualify AI submissions, right off the bat (but maybe not consider them a “leg up,” either). They will just be part of the landscape, going forward. A lot of “classic” résumé advice isn’t really much better than what ChatGPT will provide, anyway. For example, he rails against “Buzzword Bingo.” I hate that, too, but it is also a “classic” CV technique, and many professional submissions will be absolutely packed with jargon.

I just think that there isn’t any way to avoid having to dedicate some real time and effort to screening applicants. In my case, it was something that I took very seriously. I had to fight like crazy to get headcount, and I was hiring pretty high-functioning people for a small, rather “elite” team. I really can’t relate to having to sort through hundreds of CVs of folks right out of school.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#36
post #8
post #6

Isn't Canonical famous for having one of the worst candidate selection processes? Also, there's a lot of superstition and nonsense about how to succeed at interviews and job applications.

I once applied for a job at Canonical. This was their process (roughly two years ago)... Thank you for applying for Software Engineer. The application process has several stages: - Initial screening (done) - Personal essay (this stage) - Culture interview - Standardised aptitude and personality tests - General interviews - Recruitment screen - Technical assessment - Role-specific interviews - Hiring manager interview…

From what you wrote, sounds like one of the best. At least it sounds better than most other interviews I had that were basically random.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#37
post #18

When you have a sub 1% chance of getting an interview, asking for a cover letter or some kind of non trivial time comitment is just wrong. IMHO a better approach would be to select lets say 10% of the candidates and ask only them.

If an applicant can’t take the time to write a cover letter — and by “cover letter” I just mean an email that’s says here’s who I am and here’s what I like/do — why should the person hiring take the time to read what the applicant has copied and pasted to countless other employers?

> and by “cover letter” I just mean an email that’s says here’s who I am and here’s what I like/do

This makes it sound like it would be something that would be "copied and pasted to countless other employers", just like a resume often is.

But your last point made it sound like the applicant should invest more of their time than that.

Conventionally, a good cover letter will be, at least to a degree, bespoke for that job. But that is a non-trivial time investment on the part of the applicant. And it can be a significant waste of time in cases where something on their resume disqualifies them from consideration regardless of their cover letter.

Also, in the last several years, the impact of a good cover letter on getting an employment offer has diminished tremendously to the point that expect it of applicants isn't not respectful of their time.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#38
post #16

I had this happen with an applicant recently, where they fed our job description into ChatGPT to generate a cover letter which was very non-descript and flowery, quoting phrases from the job spec verbatim which made it sound rather insane. Trying to give the candidate a chance, I asked them why they had a applied to the position in the hopes that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest. Al…

> that they would write me a short answer about what piqued their interest

Honest question: do people actually apply to jobs because it piques their interest? I pretty much just... need a job. I'll assess whether I want to join based almost purely on the team - if the team doesn't feel right, I'll skip.

I don't apply for any jobs that require a cover letter. There's already enough information asymmetry and the effort required from the candidate is a lot higher than from the company as the company can distribute the work across multiple employees. A cover letter is a way to shift even more work to the candidate.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#39
It's funny because I've read that details scare people, so you should avoid them. May be include something the employer likes (saved the employer 200K per year using xyz solution) but technical details?

I guess it depends on who's reading.

Re: How (not) to apply for a software job

#40
post #8
post #6

Isn't Canonical famous for having one of the worst candidate selection processes? Also, there's a lot of superstition and nonsense about how to succeed at interviews and job applications.

I once applied for a job at Canonical. This was their process (roughly two years ago)... Thank you for applying for Software Engineer. The application process has several stages: - Initial screening (done) - Personal essay (this stage) - Culture interview - Standardised aptitude and personality tests - General interviews - Recruitment screen - Technical assessment - Role-specific interviews - Hiring manager interview…

Honestly if I had all those hoops to jump through I'd go and work somewhere else.
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