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Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

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Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#121
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is imposing a government mandate on its car industry. It is a top-down solution that is reminiscence of the Soviet Union. If you actually looked closely, you'll that there is a mountain of question businesses tried to extract subsidies from the government. In reality, China's BEV strategy is going to be disrupted and will be wiped out. It is pursuing a dead end technology that few people want. It will only take…

[flagged]

And you're just a brainwashed BEV fanatic. Time to give up on Chinese Communist propaganda. The whole thing is a giant scam and it is destined to fail.

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#122
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just being brainwashed by BEV propaganda. Not only do people with a brain still believe in hydrogen for cars, that includes the majority of automotive engineers. BEVs are the weird, government mandated BS cars that few people want. If the car industry was given a democratic choice, it will pivot to hydrogen as the future.

> that includes the majority of automotive engineers That is hilariously untrue. Even compared to your usual nonsense. > If the car industry was given a democratic choice, it will pivot to hydrogen as the future. In Germany the govenrment wanted to enact more pro-hydrogen polices and the car makers literally told them not to it was a waste of time. And of course we had many periods, in the US, Europe and Japan where…

The car makers are not "democratic." It is mostly a handful of out-of-touch executives forcing everyone to go their way. A lot of is driven by the PR fallout of dieselgate too. The line workers and engineers are not on-board. Also, if you listen carefully you'll realize that most executives are not on-board either. The CEO of Stellantis have repeated questioned the direction of the BEV mandate.

And of course, they are quietly sabotaging everything behind the scenes. There's a reason why there is a e-fuel exception, and why the UK sudden moved the deadline back 5 years. There is not much real support behind the scene. I expect the BEV mandates to be abandoned in due time.

Note that FCEV subsidies didn't really exist in the past, outside of tangential subsidies that targeted at all green cars. The real target would be refueling subsidies and deployment of infrastructure, which have only recently started to happen.

What you're doing is regurgitating the same anti-EV argument used against BEVs. Remember, BEVs were at nearly zero before the mid-2000s. And compared to the ICE market, it is still tiny and mostly irrelevant. The moment the government take hydrogen cars more seriously, it will take off.

It's also worth noting that diesel got to >50% of the market in Europe before rapidly dying off. It could easily happen to BEVs too. It is not a real, organic market. It is mostly due to subsidies and heavy-handed government mandates forcing companies to make them. Take that away and the market will disappear just like it did with diesel cars.

Finally, the tides are starting to turn. You are repeat claims that in direct contradiction to the OP itself. A sign you aren't even paying attention before spamming your BEV propaganda. People are starting to lose faith in BEVs, and the problems will get louder over time.

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#123
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe anyone with a brain ever thought hydrogen was going to be practical for cars. Governments (thankfully not the US much) pushed hydrogen as a stalling tactic knowing it would never be viable or reduce demand for fossil fuels.

You are just being brainwashed by BEV propaganda. Not only do people with a brain still believe in hydrogen for cars, that includes the majority of automotive engineers. BEVs are the weird, government mandated BS cars that few people want. If the car industry was given a democratic choice, it will pivot to hydrogen as the future.

I've banned this account for two reasons. First, you've continued to break the site guidelines after we asked you to stop—often egregiously, as in these cases:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37258086

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37258071

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37253124

Second, you've been using HN primarily for ideological battle, which is not allowed here, and almost always on the same topic, which is especially not allowed here. This is a rule regardless of your ideology and regardless of your topic, because it's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#124
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

And you're just a brainwashed BEV fanatic. Time to give up on Chinese Communist propaganda. The whole thing is a giant scam and it is destined to fail.

We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines and generally abusing HN. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654244.

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#125
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is imposing a government mandate on its car industry. It is a top-down solution that is reminiscence of the Soviet Union. If you actually looked closely, you'll that there is a mountain of question businesses tried to extract subsidies from the government. In reality, China's BEV strategy is going to be disrupted and will be wiped out. It is pursuing a dead end technology that few people want. It will only take…

[flagged]

You also broke the site guidelines repeatedly and egregiously in this thread. As you can see, we ban accounts that do that. I'm not going to ban you because it doesn't look like you've been making a habit of it, but I did notice your account breaking the site guidelines recently in other threads, and that's bad:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37637885

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37622043

Please stop doing this.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, we'd appreciate it. Commenters here need to stick to the rules regardless of how badly other commenters are behaving or it feels like they are.

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honda is probably not who you want to look at for EV comparisons. They have the Honda E (city car, I think being discontinued) and upcoming partnership with GM to rebadge the Blazer EV as Honda Prologue. And then there’s their “Afeela” joint venture with Sony which I’m sure will go great…

Yeahhhh Honda was only any good in the 80s-90s. Nowadays they're just resting on their laurels and abusing brand recognition.

Honda has an F1 Championship winning engine.

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last sentence is interesting. Nurses make 2-3 times as much as (K-12) teachers in the USA

Also interestingly, in Europe teachers usually earn much more than nurses.

Because unions.

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#128
post #110

Working in Tech, I love a lot about electric cars. I just have a few issues I cannot seem to overcome (this is a personal ME thing about EV's and some new gas vehicles, your mileage may vary....pun intended). All new cars spy on you (well most do), but EV's are completely software driven and seem to be more intrusive. I want a car I can connect to the internet when I want to for updates and that is it. I also want an…

BEVs are a dead end technology because they are far more expensive than the cars they are replacing. There is no way this market is going to survive once the subsidies and government support ends. People with brains are finally realizing that it is time to move on and towards some other technology.

I think we will end up pulling back towards PHEVs (or range extended EVs). You can have literally 1/4 of the battery and still never use fossil fuels for 90% of journeys. You don't get to have as much power, but EVs are more powerful than necessary anyway.

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its funny how the EU is now 'investigating subsidies' in China. There is nothing "new" here. The EU warned against China's "funny" NEV policies back in 2018 -- see the EU's WTO complaint WT/DS549, "China — Certain Measures on the Transfer of Technology." You could also tell that Biden's response (aka, the IRA, enacted in 2022) to clean energy was inspired by and modeled on China's "funny" NEV policies -- ensuring tha…

Subsidizing some technology or another isn't new. The US electric car subsidies and other policies date back further then 2018. And Europe has plenty of subsidies for their car industry, with the car industry being politically powerful. > if China had so much time to build the sector. Because its not just about cars, its everything from mine to the battery. And their policies weren't that anti-competitive, European a…

  Subsidizing some technology or another isn't new.
No, you just don't seem to understand how subsidies work. There are legal subsidies -- take for instance, food or defense industries, or anything that's produced and consumed domestically is up to individual country to decide.

Then, there are illegal subsidies: "export subsidies" or "import substitution." China, as a member of WTO, is prohibited from giving any subsidy contingent on export performance, or on the use of domestic over imported goods. So for instance, China's subsidies were only given to EVs with domestic batteries made by domestic companies over foreign companies -- even if they were made in China, since 2015. China forced out foreign competitors, eg LG Chem which had close to 50% of the Chinese EV battery market share prior to this now down to less 1%, despite being the world's largest EV battery maker outside China, and ensured that only their domestic champions received EV subsidies in a market where subsidies accounted for as much as 40% of new EV cost. This is all ok, so long as China never intends to sell their EVs over the water -- after all, it's their money. China's EV initiative however was geared towards exports and dominating the field. EV subsidies elsewhere are obviously legal b/c, unlike, China's, they don't violate those rules.

  Because its not just about cars, its everything from mine to the battery. And their policies weren't that anti-competitive, European and US car makers made a lot of money in China for quite a while and they didn't transfer much EV technology.
China's EV initiative didn't really start until 2009 when they first announced their EV subsidies. CATL for instance wasn't even founded until 2011; BYD was really nobody back then. The modern lithium ion batteries really became popular after SONY's first commercialization in the early 1990's -- the Japanese and Korean really kept the industry going since. And the leaders in the battery industry for instance were LG, Panasonic, Samsung, BASF, all of whom were asked to give up their IPR in exchange to access China's NEV market. This is detailed in the EU's WTO dispute against China's forced tech transfer - WT/DS549.

While China has long dominated the metal refining/processing industry largely due to developed countries' aversion to pollution, China's EV resource acquistion/spree likewise didn't really start until 2010's.

Re: Volkswagen cuts jobs as demand for EVs plunges

#130
post #43

Who is buying a new car these days anyway? Maybe the older generation who are living in their cheap paid off homes. But i dont know anyone below 50 who ever bought a new car. 50k for a small refrigerator? Compared to a 10 year old bigger car for 15k with similar operating costs and no hassle.

I bought a new car in April of 2020 and it was a screaming deal. Paid 3k under MSRP for a prestige trim and the total price was in the 20s. Maybe your friends just don't know a buying opportunity when it comes around?

Yeah, try that in 2023 and get back to me.
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