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Please do not take down the Sality botnet

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Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#31

Post by rprasad »

a3camero wrote: post #18
yukyukyuk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer. But this would never come to pass - no DA would have the brains let alone the skill or political will to prosecute. Also, seems like a freedom of speech issue. Otherwise it would be difficult for educators to discuss computer security. In fact, I'm pretty sure he could even do away with all of the "non-suggestion" text and still be fine. If I say, "I think you should hack website X, humanity will be bet…

Law student. These sort of situations have been considered by the people that write criminal laws. If you recommend a crime to someone and then they do it then you're a party to that offence ( http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-6.html#h-5 [Canadian Criminal Code, but I assume US is quite similar on this]). There are a variety of ways to become a party to a crime, and then you're as guilty as the rest o…

The U.S. criminal code is not like the Canadian Criminal Code. Also, I suggest you reread the statute. By the plain language of the CCC, it is not enough to recommend that someone commit a crime, you must actually counsel them in how to do it (i.e,. provide advice).

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#32

Post by Frelette »

piggity wrote: post #23
pluies_public wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Messing with other people's computers in any form without their information and consent is usually prohibited by law. A slightly broken analogy would be breaking into a house to remove a hornets nest. Even if you do it carefully and not do any damage and what you do is beneficial for the community as a whole, it's contrary to the law.

If my neighbours hornets nest had killer hornets that were biting all the children in the neighbourhood and the police / council refused to do anything; then it'd be a damned shame if someone neatly removed the hornets nest. Of course that wouldn't make it any more legal; but your defence would have a field day with the prosecution I'd imagine. IANAL but I've watched the first double episode of The Firm, and I reckon…

Except that: we aren't 'ENTERING YOUR COMPUTER CASE'... we are removing code that you are running to infect other computers. There is no world equivalent, ridiculously phrased analogy that applies.

You might want to just stay off the internet if you are afraid. Here's another example of fearful users, frozen into not doing anything: http://ddkportraits.com/2012/02/why-i-tearfully-deleted-my-p...

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#33

Post by rprasad »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #24
yukyukyuk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer. But this would never come to pass - no DA would have the brains let alone the skill or political will to prosecute. Also, seems like a freedom of speech issue. Otherwise it would be difficult for educators to discuss computer security. In fact, I'm pretty sure he could even do away with all of the "non-suggestion" text and still be fine. If I say, "I think you should hack website X, humanity will be bet…

I agree that a DA would be highly unlikely to prosecute as it would take a large amount of effort for little gain, but this clearly fits the definition of conspiracy. There is no requirement that conspirators know each other, and posting the files required seems like an overt step.

In the U.S., by definition the conspirators must agree to commit a crime. Thus, they must know each other--not in a personal sense, but they must actually know that there are other participants and agree to act in concert with those other participants.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#34

Post by vibrunazo »

rprasad wrote: post #30
yukyukyuk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer. But this would never come to pass - no DA would have the brains let alone the skill or political will to prosecute. Also, seems like a freedom of speech issue. Otherwise it would be difficult for educators to discuss computer security. In fact, I'm pretty sure he could even do away with all of the "non-suggestion" text and still be fine. If I say, "I think you should hack website X, humanity will be bet…

Actual lawyer. He's generally right, in the U.S. at least. Suggesting that someone commit an illegal act does not rise to the level of conspiracy. You have to actually do something meaningful to support the criminal effort to be charged with conspiracy. In certain circumstances, incitement can be a crime, but the threshold for that crime is very high.

> but the threshold for that crime is very high

What exactly does that mean? What is the line between "incitement" and "suggesting a crime"?

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#36

Post by Tsagadai »

derefr wrote: post #25
colbyolson wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that network yours? No? Then it's illegal. It's an interesting way to have someone do the dirty work. I would love to see a postmortem writeup.

Is "breaking into" a shanty town built on my neighbourhood's various front lawns illegal?

In many countries, yes.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#38

Post by chives »

eck wrote: post #21
ricardobeat wrote: post #15

So why can't those nice guys from the FBI go and do it already? It's so easy to replace sites when piracy is involved...

Victims of piracy have better lobbyists than the victims of identity theft.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#39

Post by eridius »

maaku wrote: post #35

What if I get permission from the owner of one of the infected systems to "penetrate" his setup and upload the botnet-destroyer. Would that still be illegal?

I think the issue is that to remove the botnet, it requires having your code be executed on all infected machines. You can't possible get permission from the owners of the millions of infected machines to do this.

Re: Please do not take down the Sality botnet

#40

Post by bdonlan »

rprasad wrote: post #30
yukyukyuk wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a lawyer. But this would never come to pass - no DA would have the brains let alone the skill or political will to prosecute. Also, seems like a freedom of speech issue. Otherwise it would be difficult for educators to discuss computer security. In fact, I'm pretty sure he could even do away with all of the "non-suggestion" text and still be fine. If I say, "I think you should hack website X, humanity will be bet…

Actual lawyer. He's generally right, in the U.S. at least. Suggesting that someone commit an illegal act does not rise to the level of conspiracy. You have to actually do something meaningful to support the criminal effort to be charged with conspiracy. In certain circumstances, incitement can be a crime, but the threshold for that crime is very high.

He did provide the tools and instructions, to be fair. I'm not sure if that counts as 'something meaningful', but it's something more than just suggesting, anyway.
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