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EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

theregister.com

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Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#72
post #38

I would rather have ethernet in every room and a less sophisticated/powerful wifi. It seems ethernet is fairly rare even in new construction.

My house is new construction (although I had no input to the construction) and it wasn't wired for ethernet which is crazy to me. Although it is at least wired with coax so I just bought 2 pairs of MoCA adapters and now I have wired connections where I want them.

Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#73
This article is completely inept. I'm nowhere near an expert in WiFi tech, but having done a lot of in-office WiFi setups over the past several years, it's easy to see the differences in quality generation over generation.

> Trouble is, the woes listed in the messaging are those that previous versions of services and wireless standards claimed to fix. If they didn't fix them, why should we believe this lot will? If they did, what is Qualcomm actually saying? It's a paradox.

Previous iterations of WiFi DID fix these problems. Modern "WiFi 6" is significantly better at handling many simultaneous clients than the old 802.11b/g were. We've been through multiple generational improvements to the old scheme, such as,

  - 802.11n using 5 GHz with lower penetration, making it easier to create more and smaller cells 
  - 802.11n introducing MIMO, leveraging airspace better 
  - 802.11ac introducing MU-MIMO, allowing simultaneous transmission for multiple clients 
  - 802.11ax expanding MU-MIMO into the frequency domain, making it more effective 
  - Much better and quicker channel reuse during potential collisions
  - Quicker transmission means the time slices clients DO get are more meaningful
WiFi has gotten so much better over the past several years, that I suspect people just don't remember how unreliable it was before. Part of this is because it's been a gradual improvement, as new standards have come out, on-market hardware has slowly taken up these new features, and client devices need to be aged out and replaced before a newer device can make use of these newer features -- which users might just attribute to their new device being "better", and not that the WiFi got better.

It's not hard to look at the WiFi 7 (802.11be) Wikipedia page and see that it offers several improvements to handle increased client load,

  - Multi-Access Point (AP) Coordination (e.g. coordinated and joint transmission)
  - Enhanced link adaptation and retransmission protocol (e.g. Hybrid Automatic Repeat Request (HARQ))
  - Enhanced resource allocation in OFDMA
  - Optimized channel sounding that requires less airtime
  - Implicit channel sounding
  - Support of direct links, managed by an access point
> There is no consumer problem of today, no domestic use case imaginable, where 50Gbps works where 10 will not.

WiFi quality is not dictated by the advertised transmission rate. That's just the number hardware vendors love to advertise, because it keeps getting bigger and bigger generation-on-generation, whereas all these other improvements are much more nuanced and tough to communicate in marketing copy.

> The 6GHz band, which in the US actually goes some way beyond 7GHz, is more easily blocked by walls and other physical stuff necessary for gracious living than 5GHz, so coverage problems won't be fixed.

Which may actually be desirable. Less penetration through walls means smaller cells that don't interfere (need to share airspace) with as many neighbors. This has been a boon in dense settings (office buildings, apartment buildings, public WiFi) during the 2.4 GHz -> 5 GHz transition.

If you have a large house with many walls separating each room, you may now need more APs to cover the same area. But looking at the proliferation of mesh-based systems, it seems the market is already moving that way anyway.

> It would be amazing if one in a hundred households notice an iota of difference if their current router magically sprouted Wi-Fi 7, and this won't change much for the years it takes to get phones, laptops, and everything else with older versions of the standard upgraded. Good luck getting those managed end-to-end services up and running too.

And this is just uselessly defeatist. My current devices don't support the new standard, so why bother? WiFi has seen tremendous advances in quality and capability over the past 15 years, and users have always realized those advances as their devices age out. Back in the 802.11g days, it would've been unheard of to have multiple TVs and iPads in a single apartment within a densely populated apartment building streaming 4K video over WiFi simultaneously.

Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#74

The home upgrade that most folks need is a symmetrical fibre optic of some kind, with open-access [1] and either municipal [2] or non-profit at OSI Layer 1/2, with competition at OSI Layer 3. I think at this point 100Mbps would be the minimum, with diminishing returns once you start getting above 1Gbps (but available with XG(S)-PON(G.98(0)7)/NG-PON2(G.989)/HSP(G.9804) and 802.3ca). It was technically possible to wire…

The internet is designed for average people to suck down content, rather than create content. It's why I get 1gbps down but 35mbps up.

Only the "last mile" of residential connections (and often business, if they can't justify the cost of a full fibre connection in their current location).

Up to 33k6 modems home internet was generally symmetrical: the same speed up and down. 56k6 standards introduced asymmetry: it wasn't easy (i.e. inexpensively with that era's tech) to reliably transmit at the faster rates over copper in both directions (in fact it was rare in one direction - it wasn't often I saw faster than 48k, IIRC 45k was what I'd usually get) so the upstream was half of down. If I was uploading anything like photos of force the connection down to 33k6 at the upstream rate would be 33k6 rather than 24k or less.

This continued with ADSL and then FTTC: the signalling frequencies used are allocated in a way that gives preference to downstream speed. This is a good compromise for most home users who download far more than they send back, but inconvenient when setting up (to pick one example from many) large videos recorded on modern phones, which is something many home users might want to do regularly. I currently get ~55mbit/13mbit and I'd much rather have it more balanced (something like 24mbit/24mbit?). I'll be upgrading to FTTP as soon as the cables they install a month or so ago are enabled, not for better downstream (it isn't often that ~55mbit is a significant inconvenience) but for better upstream.

Full fibre doesn't have the limits of copper connections that force the choice of how to portion limited frequencies, not just because full fibre has cleaner signalling (so far reliable throughout) anyway, but also because it is synchronous: unlike with copper the signals from each side don't interfere with each other. (Copper needn't have this limitation but to work around it you'd need to double up the number of wires and even then at the speeds offered many would prefer such a bonded arrangement to give faster downstream at the expense of upstream)

Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#75

What annoys me is this: I have a TMobile iPhone 15 Pro and three Erro Pro 6 units, all with wired backhaul. Over the wire, my fast.com results repeatedly reach ~1.2 Gigs. Over Wifi, from a foot away, my results are around 650Mbps. The local church recently had T-Mobile install a 5G antenna array around it. I'm about two blocks away. Over 5G, I get 1.4Gigs down, though my walls, through an entire house between us. But…

> What annoys me is this: I have a TMobile iPhone 15 Pro and three Erro Pro 6 units, all with wired backhaul. Over the wire, my fast.com results repeatedly reach ~1.2 Gigs. Over Wifi, from a foot away, my results are around 650Mbps. I have an iPhone 12 talking to a Sagemcom 5689E that gets about the same. Want faster? Get gear that's designed to go faster, i.e./e.g., both ends support 802.11ax (Wifi 6E). If I upgrade…

650 Mbps is a very good result for Wi-Fi 6. 2x2 MIMO and 80 MHz channel yields a link rate of 1200 Mbps. Throughput of half the link rate is typical. iPhones don't support 4x4 MIMO or 160 MHz wide channels needed to go significantly faster (2400 Mbps with one enabled or 4800 Mbps with both features).

Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#76

> There is no consumer problem of today, no domestic use case imaginable, where 50Gbps works where 10 will not. Honestly, 640kbps should be enough for anyone, if you ask me.

I'd imagine the priority for the service provider is new product lines built around wifi sensing rather than the marketing about bandwidth. It is /really/ hard to come up with new applications that require so much bandwidth constrained to a one room, especially given we aren't even remotely tapped out on compression fanciness for visual media in mass deployment (see e.g. the recent obscenely low bit rate videoconferencing codec work from Nvidia)

Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#77
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> […] far from the closest village... And I had fiber to the home (2 Gbps down // 600 Mbps up). You were probably not surprised that the dwelling you were in had electricity. I think at some point having fibre should also be as unsurprising.

Interestingly, there are a lot of places near me in northern New England where I genuinely am surprised to find electricity (or plumbing, for that matter) in a house. Some places are just that hard to get to.

IMHO, if you can string a copper wire for power (and POTS) you can string a fibre. It's just a matter of us deciding to wire things up like was done in the 20th century.

Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because iPhones (and all other smartphones) use 2x2 mimo WiFi arrays. The only way you’ll get > 1 GBPS on WiFi is on a device with 3x3 or 4x4 mimo WiFi. 2x2 is used because it’s less power intensive and takes up less physical space in the device.

Are there smartphones with 3x3 or 4x4 mimo wifi?

No.

Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#79
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you eccentrically expect to use your telephone line to make telephone calls. In which case you are rather tied to their router to power their propietary VoIP landline service.

Emotive language such as "eccentrically" is strange considering the decline in landline subscribers, and even less usage of an actual landline. If you want to have a functioning "landline", why would you choose to use one bundled with your internet provider compared to a much more competitive independent voip provider? This is a good summary of the decline: https://www.wrappz.com/blog/decline-of-the-landline/

Yes Daviey, those of use using a telephone in the traditional way are a diminishing number. Hence passively becoming eccentric... Not as much as the person riding a penny farthing but slowly heading that way.

To the other questions in the UK yes you can move your landline telephone number to a third party open standard sipp voip service, but setting up a voip adapter to pretend to be a landline is fiddly for many and migrating a landline telephone number, while it can be done, is not a nice process in practice. If you have an openreach ont with a telephone socket built in don't expect it to do anything in the future. The industry went another way. If you wish to carry on plugging in a telephone to your landline without any configuration then you will have to start using the telephone socket on your wifi router and only the router provided by your isp. (With some exceptions). Though most people won't care because they just use their mobiles now...

Re: EE is working with Qualcomm to add Wi-Fi 7 to consumer broadband hubs

#80

In the UK supposedly they are switching off Landlines in 2025, so anyone that still wants a "landline phone" (as opposed to mobile) is going to have to do VOIP Its going to be a shitshow because everyone's Grandma is now going to trying to get VOIP phones working and domestic routers are just a load of crap that crash all the time. edit: source: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-transition-from-analogue-to-d...

It's already begun. The Stop Sell for Wholesale Line Rental happened this month, so you can no longer order a analogue phoen line in most areas.
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