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New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

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Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#81

Post by jstanley »

prepend wrote: post #27

I think it’s better than nothing, but ultimately not helpful for job seekers working to learn how much a position will pay them. I work in a very regulated organization where all pay rates are published with postings. [0] But the ranges are $20-40k for each grade and it’s hard to tell what you will end up being offered and accepted. I think it helps prevent some mismatches of people confusing $20k and $200k positions…

> I frequently see people with work history in the $30/hour range applying for very high pay jobs.

Does a low-paying job in the past disqualify you from high-paying jobs in the future?

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#82

Post by blfr »

mschuster91 wrote: post #66
blfr wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as "same work" outside of a production line and the like. You learn this in the initial weeks of your career. In every tech company there are programmers, project managers, and sales people who have the same titles but deliver vastly different quality of outcomes. And everyone knows this because they instantly pick the good ones whenever they have the slightest optionality. You have a new proje…

So what, you can use a well defined bonus structure. At least that is transparent and related to one's own work skill.

Interestingly, you can't. Although to be fair, plenty of managers still believe they can.

Imagine a job where results seem fairly easily quantifiable: sales. You want to hire a great salesguy you know. His current salary is 168k and he collects another 85k in bonuses. How do you get him?

You offer him 260 base and some unspecified bonus you will work out later. Why? Because he already knows what kind of bonuses he can collect where he is but only has a vague idea of your company's product potential.

This uncertainty and unattainability of full information forces companies into either wide bands or made up titles. That's even before he goes to his current boss for a competing offer.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#83

Post by sarchertech »

pc86 wrote: post #74
sarchertech wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the vast majority of cases, you’re not going to know what an individual brings to the job for 6 months to a year at the minimum. The majority of the pay difference between 2 people with the same job title (assuming standard bigco leveling) comes down to negotiating ability. Published pay ranges aren’t going to solve anything, but they do reduce the information asymmetry a little bit. They give you and idea of what…

> The majority of the pay difference between 2 people with the same job title (assuming standard bigco leveling) comes down to negotiating ability. No, it comes down to about 1/3 negotiating ability and about 2/3 prior experience, impressions you give at the interview, and leverage (e.g. other offers real or perceived). The first one you can get from the resume and the other two happen over the course of the intervie…

When I say negotiating ability I also mean to include multiple offers. Which in my experience is the single biggest factor in determining pay for most software engineers.

I agree more specialized and very senior rolls are different, but most people are going into much more generic roles. Even then bad negotiating skills can swamp out everything you else if you throw out a low number to someone willing to take advantage of it.

All said we agree that realistic pay bands will help here.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#84

Post by throw1234651234 »

jstanley wrote: post #81
prepend wrote: post #27

I think it’s better than nothing, but ultimately not helpful for job seekers working to learn how much a position will pay them. I work in a very regulated organization where all pay rates are published with postings. [0] But the ranges are $20-40k for each grade and it’s hard to tell what you will end up being offered and accepted. I think it helps prevent some mismatches of people confusing $20k and $200k positions…

> I frequently see people with work history in the $30/hour range applying for very high pay jobs. Does a low-paying job in the past disqualify you from high-paying jobs in the future?

In my experience, it mostly does. Everyone tries to funnel you into +5-15% positions and may relent to +15%-30% when you reject their offer (two times and they still decide they need you).

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#85

Post by Spooky23 »

version_five wrote: post #51
prepend wrote: post #27

I think it’s better than nothing, but ultimately not helpful for job seekers working to learn how much a position will pay them. I work in a very regulated organization where all pay rates are published with postings. [0] But the ranges are $20-40k for each grade and it’s hard to tell what you will end up being offered and accepted. I think it helps prevent some mismatches of people confusing $20k and $200k positions…

The big ranges is a logical consequence of such stupid rules. People are not commodities, and only in the most trivial of work can you a priori know what an individual brings to it. It's typical government thinking that makes no sense in the real world. So employers are stuck publishing an absurdly wide band that reflects the difference in what different people might bring to the position. This is effectively populis…

Says who?

Labor is absolutely a commodity, and companies price labor both for buying and selling based on skills and demand.

You may inhabit some obscure corner of the world where you’re some sort of free agent priced individually. But most likely, you’re working for a company in a title assigned by some HR person into a salary band. The salary band is chosen by the business unit based on their budget.

The wide bands are published to minimally comply with the law. In the long run, they advertise to applicants that the company will happily bone them given the choice.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#86

Post by hiatus »

the_gipsy wrote: post #12
robertlagrant wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's for New York employers only, is it not? Or do you need a presence in NY to employ people there?

If they hire employees that reside in NY they have to make ranges public in the offer.

The article seems to contradict your statement.

> The law, signed by Gov. Kathy Hochul in 2022, also will apply to remote employees who work outside of New York but report to a supervisor, office or worksite based in the state.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#87

Post by ta1243 »

sokoloff wrote: post #30
ta8645 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems unlikely, since they do not have legal jurisdiction over say a company in Belgium who is advertising worldwide for employees.

Intent and reasonably foreseeable outcomes probably matters here. If that company in Belgium advertises worldwide and somehow hires many people who live in New York, you bet NY will argue (successfully) that they have to follow this law, at least prospectively, as it affects residents of their state and the DoL has jurisdiction over protecting the labor rights of its residents.

I wonder if they'll also be agreeing to enforce the GDPR because New York companies sell services to Belgium citizens

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#88

Post by Spooky23 »

jstanley wrote: post #81
prepend wrote: post #27

I think it’s better than nothing, but ultimately not helpful for job seekers working to learn how much a position will pay them. I work in a very regulated organization where all pay rates are published with postings. [0] But the ranges are $20-40k for each grade and it’s hard to tell what you will end up being offered and accepted. I think it helps prevent some mismatches of people confusing $20k and $200k positions…

> I frequently see people with work history in the $30/hour range applying for very high pay jobs. Does a low-paying job in the past disqualify you from high-paying jobs in the future?

Yeah, it’s an entrenched form of classism. Sort of like the American version of the old British Civil Service. The plucky clerk will never be the high commissioner.

Most companies paying premiums recruit a particular pedigree of university graduate. Few graduates of Flyover State are going to be rockstars at the First National Bank of Nowhere and get a fancy gig at Facebook or a hedge fund.

One exception is .gov employees. For exceptional people, smarter companies will usually value their current comp at 150%.

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#89

Post by shortrounddev2 »

elromulous wrote: post #2

I've previously commented [0] on how broken this implementation is. It's frustrating politicians don't see how easy it is to circumvent what the law seeks to achieve. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37440358

In your original comment

> Also, it only forces companies to list the base salary, but especially in tech, that's just a portion of one's total comp.

"Total compensation" is, to me, a way to inflate one's own value.

1. In companies with no market for stock options (privately owned, startups, companies that are just absolutely worthless), equity is hypothetical money which may never be worth anything. I worked for a company which gave me 250,000 options but the company lost 18mil a year and they ended up cancelling all stock options. Some people worked there for 15 years hoping the options would be worth something and eventually saw them cancelled outright. Unless I'm working for a publicly traded company, I don't put much value in stock options. With a startup, you're basically asking to be paid in poker chips.

2. Health insurance is something I expect to be there, regardless of the monetary value.

3. I've worked for plenty of companies that include a 10% performance-based bonus as part of the compensation only to never get that bonus (or get nowhere near 10%) regardless of my own performance because the company itself didn't profit last quarter, or they did profit and just chose not to pay out bonuses.

4. The perks that you get (free breakfast burritos, free barrista, gym membership) are tokens that can (and will) be taken away as soon as the federal reserve decides to jack up rates on your company lays off 25% of the workforce in order to pay their CEO his 300mil compensation package

"Total compensation" means "base salary plus hypothetical money in a perfect universe"

Re: New York employers must include pay rates in job ads under new state law

#90

Post by danaris »

edgyquant wrote: post #37
febra_ wrote: post #28

Good. Hiding income only works for the company to exploit their workers.

Does this not remove the ability for individuals to negotiate up past a certain point?

Personally, I don't feel like having a higher skill at bullshitting and persuading people that is utterly unrelated to the job should get you paid more for the same work.

(If the job is sales, then negotiating for higher pay could just be part of proving your skill, of course.)

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