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Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

jenson.org

271–280 of 693 posts

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#271

I completely agree with author's view of the issue. Text editing on iOS and android have always been an afterthought. I mean, how much time did it take for the iPhone to get Copy/Paste ? The weirder part to me was that the iPad didn't bring much improvement on that front. Even with a bigger screen and "desktop class" application, text editing only barely works with a keyboard/touchpad attached. The only improvement h…

> I mean, how much time did it take for the iPhone to get Copy/Paste?

It's kind of sad to reflect that the Apple Newton had this almost a decade prior[1] to the first iPhone and in an intuitive manner, by selecting text by highlighting it with the stylus then dragging it to the edge of the screen where it would remain in a truncated pill form for later retrieval (dragging out the pill to a document). No menus involved at all.

[1] @ 30 seconds in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sue2BR1AHUE

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#272
post #97

The problem is far from invisible (to me at least). A few months ago on HN I used text editing as an example of how iOS wasn't ready for "business" use. I can't find the comment now, but my memory is that I listed several of the issues listed in this post and said something like "Text creation/editing is core to the 'business', non-content-consumer use case. Apple needs to either acknowledge these problems and work t…

> Google obviously uses gmail, and just as clearly never used any of the social products they released

Employees use for example Gmail and Google Docs, and it's critical to their productivity.

It can be hard to get the same feedback loop for other products. Some Google employees used Google+, but not that many, and they didn't need the same features as external users. And even if they complained internally about some things, it was not critical anyway.

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#273
> Text editing on mobile isn't OK

No, it's completely broken. And mobile is an absolute mess. The touch system is so utterly overloaded with functionality that it effectively makes all these wonderful things completely opaque and, in a lot of cases, not discoverable at all.

Ask any iOS user what single, double, triple clicks mean. Ask them if they know about long touch on the spacebar. Ask them to show you everything they know about how to operate the device.

What you'll learn is that the vast majority of people pretty know nothing about the function overloading of touch and gestures. They know simple touch interaction and that's about it.

The touch screen, whether it is on a phone or in a car, exists for one simple reason: It is a lot easier to make UI decisions when you don't have to make them. It's cheaper. It's faster to design. Manufacturing costs are lower. Testing is simpler.

Having design many physical control panels during my career, for products ranging from commercial through aerospace, I can tell you it is a difficult grueling process. In short, pain in the ass. And, if you make a mistake or change your mind, you can't just compile your way out of it. Hardware is hard (and expensive) for a reason.

Today's smart phone designers flat-out refuse to add physical UI elements to their phones, instead, choosing contorted ways to overload the touch interface.

Prior to iOS devices I owned some very interesting phones and PDA's by companies like Motorola, Blackberry and Palm. In the aggregate, these companies had interesting physical UI ideas that worked very well.

A stylus, for example, is brilliantly simple and better than your finger, particularly if more sophisticated, as seen on Wacom tablets.

Blackberry had a small trackball you could also click right on the keyboard (another very useful UI element). It was great for editing text and other use cases. Heck, you could use a browser with a proper desktop-style cursor.

Motorola had a click-wheel on a PDA-like add-on to their flip phones. Fantastic for navigation and super easy to use. The clip-on also had additional buttons, that made such things as single-handed almost-blind address book navigation very simple.

Also, touch screens are incredibly fragile. Example, during a call, any accidental touch will cause problems. I have resorted to switching away from the phone application during my call and, if I have to move around (while wearing a headset) placing the phone facing outward in my pant pocket. I've had too many cases of the phone doing stupid things during a call when in my pocket facing inward.

In short, touch screens are terrible for the consumer in a lot of use cases. They are fantastic for the manufacturer because they don't have to make any decisions, manufacture a single product and all is well so long as the torture they inflict on their customers is just below a pain threshold.

There are so many potentially interesting ideas that could be explored. Adding a set of user-programmable physical macro buttons somewhere (sides or back). Adding a small cursor-only touch pad to the back for, well, pointing control. Click and right click could be actual buttons. Blackberry's mini trackball was brilliant. And a real keyboard, as a first-class citizen add-on, not something left to third parties with no real support past the basics.

If someone wants to make heavy use of a device they would love a real full-width keyboard that clips-on and folds open with a Blackberry style trackball and a few extra keys and functions. Lots of people buy cases for their phones. I would absolutely buy an official fold-out keyboard/case if it was truly integrated so I could actually use the thing without having to remember what triple-click-press-slide-right-and-face-north f-ing means.

For me, the phone is unusable for anything beyond the trivial. I hate browsing the internet with it. I don't buy anything other than Uber rides with it. I don't use it to buy anything on Amazon. Text messaging for work is useless other than the very basic, because it is horrible to edit anything and there is no real desktop integration to track and search as you can with an email client.

Which brings me to the other problem with mobile:

It's 2023.

Why isn't my phone seamlessly integrated with my computer?

When I plug-in or otherwise connect my phone to my desktop or laptop, the phone's screen should appear on my desktop as a first-class citizen for full interaction without having to touch my phone. I should be able to edit text on my phone from my desktop in a phone window. I should be able to cut, copy and paste anything between desktop and mobile. I should be able to run applications on my phone and interact with them on one of my three 27 inch screens. I should be able to click on a phone number on the desktop and dial it on the phone. I should be able to use the same headphones I use on my desktop to run a call on the phone through the desktop interface. I should be able to move, copy and manage files on the phone from my laptop. Etc.

I don't really understand what mobile designers are doing. It seems that they stopped being creative and holding their user's best interests as their primary guidance. They slap a touch screen on an aluminum frame, use as few buttons as absolutely possible. Limit desktop integration to the absolute minimum (iTunes is garbage) and leave third parties to hack stuff together rather than develop exquisitely integrated solution.

I could be wrong on this. I firmly believe Microsoft still has a real shot at a next generation phone. Their Windows Phone attempt was a failure for many reasons. What is lacking today are the things I mentioned above, and more. As ridiculous as it may sound in 2023 --because it should have been done by now-- having a device that fully integrates with desktop in an exquisitely usable symbiotic relationship would be nothing less than amazing. That, I believe, would gain traction.

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#274

Nothing on mobile is okay. I know everyone loves their smart phones but they really are terrible computers in every way except for portability. Use a computer when you actually want to do things. Smartphones are just for when you're literally unable to use a real computer.

The input is low bandwidth. It’s communication with thumbs.

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Smartphones are just for when you're literally unable to use a real computer. Which is literally extremely frequent, since we often need to do stuff on the go. Which is why an article like this is so important -- we should improve, not give up. There's no reason to think text editing on a phone has reached its final form.

The reason I think it won't get much better is that the size of smart phones will not change. It is size that's really the issue for text editing. No space for a real keyboard, no space for a real display.

Current mobile keyboards and screens are pretty much fine -- I have no issues with text input on a phone or with reading.

The problems are with editing only -- precise cursor positioning, precise selection, and then access to basic cut/copy/paste/undo operations that doesn't mess everything up.

My hunch is that we need a button on mobile keyboards to switch to a kind of "edit gesture mode". Some kind of swipe area to move the cursor, some kind of swipe area/mode to extend/contract a selection, some method to handle scrolling as necessary, some kind of magnifying zoom to select tiny things like narrow punctuation, and separate larger button areas for cut/copy/paste/undo. Maybe instead of swipes there are gestures in a kind of dedicated trackpad-type area of the screen, I don't know.

But I definitely think there's a ton of area for experimentation that hasn't been explored yet. The hold-spacebar-to-turn-keyboard-into-trackpad-to-move-cursor mode was a first step the iPhone took towards this, but I think it can go 20x further.

I think it's something that only Apple and Google are capable of developing right now though. I don't think there are enough API's exposed for third-party keyboards to directly control things like text selection, zoom, scrolling, cut/copy/paste/undo, and the like.

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#276
Ima use this opportunity to advertise that I'm working on a mobile shader editor, an area even less adopted to the form factor and am using my structured code editing research[1] to smoothen the experience.

The post echoed many of my frustrations and inspired me to consider adopting the fisheye-zoom to my editor.

I'm looking for people interested in doing shader programming on the go to try this early version, hit me up if you are interested shade@dflate.io

[1]: https://dflate.io/state-of-tofu

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#277
> While we should always take care of novice users first, we shouldn’t ignore proficient users.

I believe that the relation should be reversed: Make the best system possible, usable by well-trained users, and only then add easy modes, tutorials, child safe modes, etc. with paths for improvement at every level. But when using modern systems, I often feel like I’m reduced to using Fisher-Price toys with one (inoperative) button.

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#278

I was slightly surprised by the author’s example experiments. Deleting x from the middle of a word does not sound like a common editing task to me and I think it would be much more common to just select the whole word and retype it. If that means the UI is more optimised for other interactions than deleting letters from the middle of words, I think that’s fine. It seems pretty important to have the tests be realistic…

Deleting an 'x' was MEANT to be hard (and not typical) the whole point was to see how easy it was to target. As to your "it does seem obvious that people don’t care that much about the text-editing experience" You are exactly the type of person that I'm trying to get through to! As I said in the post, for most social media tasks, text editing isn't a problem. However, if you believe that mobile will replace desktop,…

There is this website, nngroup.com that used to be a popular reference on UX matters. They wrote lots of articles about how they tested using computers by mouse instead of keyboard and that mousing was loads better and had wide-ranging conclusions about UX from this. But the studies turned out to have actually been things like ‘replace all letter ‘e’s in this sentence with ‘|’ symbols’ and using the keyboard meant arrow keys and backspace rather than using a find-and-replace function. So sure, mice are better than cursor keys at selecting lots of letter ‘e’s and editing them, but one would hope that such a description is not representative of actual computer use and so not a good foundation on which to base general UX conclusions.

It is in this sense that I worry about the test scenario described being unrealistic. If one is measuring (and so implicitly optimising for) things that don’t matter, one is potentially rejecting solutions that would improve things that do matter without helping things that don’t.

More realistic scenarios could be:

- successfully format 10 lines or so of haskell into a hacker news comment. Obviously this is not relevant to most people but I give it as a more realistic scenario where typical mobile text-input mechanisms struggle.

- edit a misspelled name in an email of a few paragraphs.

- reorder two paragraphs in an email then edit for clarity.

- add full stops to a bulleted list (struggling with this right now).

I am sad that text editing on mobile is hard. But it does seem that efforts to make it better were not appreciated. My reading of the 3d-touch thing and other comments on this article is that the problem was appreciated by Apple but people didn’t particularly care[1] when Apple then dropped 3d-touch, for which improved text editing was its ‘killer app’.

[1] I have seen people complain about the loss of this online but I think the complaint is quite niche.

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#279
post #206
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> before you say “sounds like you just want a tablet” One of my friends uses a GPD Pocket 3, which is an 8-inch computer that's small enough to fit in your pocket, with a full keyboard, touchpad, and touchscreen that swivels to become a tablet. It's pretty nifty. https://gpd.hk/gpdpocket3

I don’t think screen size is the limiting factor when editing, but the lack of a convenient keyboard. I’ve edited quite large texts with a Bluetooth keyboard connected to my phone. Currently have a Nuphy air 75 and keychron k15 pro, small sized, mechanical, ergonomic Bluetooth keyboards, both make editing pretty acceptable.

But then you need a table or some sort of surface to put the keyboard on, and then I might as well use my laptop if I have it. I want better editing for when I'm standing in line at the grocery store with one hand free.

I have a keyboard that I've attached a guitar strap to, in order to be able to type while standing, without a table to rest the keyboard on.

Re: Text editing on mobile: the invisible problem

#280
post #193
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree and also disagree with a few aspects of both your comment and the OP. First of all, to the OP, maybe not for the leet kids, but I absolutely find large amounts of text input on a phone to be a pain. I can do it if I’m away from a computer and have to, but I don’t enjoy it and it takes more time and requires a lot of concentration. As for cursor positioning, holding down the space bar on iOS works pr…

> As for cursor positioning, holding down the space bar on iOS works pretty well — although it took me a few years to learn about it. I did not know this and it’s a godsend. I have otherwise found iOS cursor positioning to be awful, especially when text selection is involved as well. Thank you.

Most operating systems have a lot of really useful shortcuts that most people don't use despite it potentially making their lives 10x easier like Ctrl/Cmd+C. Swipe to undo, holding down the key to access accented keys (also works on address bars as it prompts you to add common domains like .com or .net), slide to type, etc. An easy way to discover most of these (on iOS specifically) is just to go through the working with text section in the iOS Tips app.
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