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‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#31

Post by splix »

notacoward wrote: post #28
pharmakom wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a socialist system exist that is not inherently authoritarian? If someone refuses to follow the coordinated economic plan (e.g. contributing to a welfare state) then ultimately the state will have to punish them somehow.

How can a capitalist system exist that is not inherently authoritarian? If someone refuses to follow the rules ... you get the idea. The only difference is that they become the authority instead of being punished by it, but the practical effect on the vast majority is the same. See: Stalin's USSR vs. Putin's Russia. Different in theory, but both authoritarian and both imperialist and both (not coincidentally) very op…

The difference is that with communism a natural human desire is punished, while in capitalism it gets rewarded. I mean a desire to do a good for himself, and only himself, ignoring the needs of the others. Maybe we don't like it as the society, but that's the people's nature.

It seems that it's more effective to leverage this natural desire (as in capitalism) rather that punish it (as in communism). The important part is "natural", i.e., people are born with it, as well as animals, and you cannot prevent it. That's not a minority at all. So the only way for communism is to constantly fight it on a great scale, which is possibly with turning into a authoritarian government.

Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#32

Post by jauntywundrkind »

pharmakom wrote: post #26
notacoward wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who say things like "what about USSR or North Korea": the problem there is/was not the socialism (or communism) but the authoritarianism . They're different axes on the political compass. Authoritarian state socialism is but one of many forms. Social democracy is structurally anti-authoritarian. "Laissez-faire" policies - the pseudo-populist alternative - actually gravitate toward government/industry collus…

How can a socialist system exist that is not inherently authoritarian? If someone refuses to follow the coordinated economic plan (e.g. contributing to a welfare state) then ultimately the state will have to punish them somehow.

Does it have to punish? At some scale yes maybe. But if the state tried to automate many of the essentials, it might be able to provide basics (food shelter sanitation) at extremely low marginal cost.

Ideally the planned state leaves room for art and culture. Who how and where the state supports creative endeavors is an open question. I'd ask similarly for open source. Ideally the state provides some spare capacity for individual development, that people can establish themselves with & start getting rewarded for.

Overall I see such a starkly different view. Coersion into behaviors & punishment seems low on my list of concerns for non-authoritarian communism.

Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#33

Post by effed3 »

pharmakom wrote: post #26
notacoward wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who say things like "what about USSR or North Korea": the problem there is/was not the socialism (or communism) but the authoritarianism . They're different axes on the political compass. Authoritarian state socialism is but one of many forms. Social democracy is structurally anti-authoritarian. "Laissez-faire" policies - the pseudo-populist alternative - actually gravitate toward government/industry collus…

How can a socialist system exist that is not inherently authoritarian? If someone refuses to follow the coordinated economic plan (e.g. contributing to a welfare state) then ultimately the state will have to punish them somehow.

(to me) every system become authoritarian (or worst) if the full spectrum of alternatives are not made and preserved possible whenever possible..

Putting capital (or socialism, growtn etc) as ultimate goals, and not tools, are on he higway to the disaster, how much of the actual economic/financial global system will exist if at every step in the development the pool of basic rights and true alternatives are respected more...

(to me) progress is (mainly) the creation of alternatives and possibilities.

similarly, someone says progress is actually the speed of the race but not it's direction..

Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#34

Post by louwrentius »

splix wrote: post #31
notacoward wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a capitalist system exist that is not inherently authoritarian? If someone refuses to follow the rules ... you get the idea. The only difference is that they become the authority instead of being punished by it, but the practical effect on the vast majority is the same. See: Stalin's USSR vs. Putin's Russia. Different in theory, but both authoritarian and both imperialist and both (not coincidentally) very op…

The difference is that with communism a natural human desire is punished, while in capitalism it gets rewarded. I mean a desire to do a good for himself, and only himself, ignoring the needs of the others. Maybe we don't like it as the society, but that's the people's nature. It seems that it's more effective to leverage this natural desire (as in capitalism) rather that punish it (as in communism). The important par…

I think there’s a misunderstanding about what communism is and that “natural human desire”, well what doe it mean, really? I’ve heard this narrative before but it sounds so self-serving.

Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#35

Post by was8309 »

pharmakom wrote: post #26
notacoward wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those who say things like "what about USSR or North Korea": the problem there is/was not the socialism (or communism) but the authoritarianism . They're different axes on the political compass. Authoritarian state socialism is but one of many forms. Social democracy is structurally anti-authoritarian. "Laissez-faire" policies - the pseudo-populist alternative - actually gravitate toward government/industry collus…

How can a socialist system exist that is not inherently authoritarian? If someone refuses to follow the coordinated economic plan (e.g. contributing to a welfare state) then ultimately the state will have to punish them somehow.

how is social democracy more authoritarian than capitalist democracy?

Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#36

Post by soco »

roenxi wrote: post #27
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the future promise is so big that I don't think anyone can process it. Sounds like a sentence that was taken from some pulpiteer's sermon when talking about god or afterlife. In other words: this promise is rather some nice fairy tale for some naive nerds and investors who love to believe in it. > I don't think they understand what exponential growth in processing power implies. This is very easy: for the data poin…

Although "we do linear regression ... in this transformed space" is correct, it also isn't an attempt to understand what exponential growth in processing power implies. That is an attempt (really, a success) at providing a definition of what exponential growth is [0]. Implications involves things like https://ourworldindata.org/brief-history-of-ai + little extrapolation. Interestingly, as I look at that article, it a…

> I wish I'd had that when I was at University.

Looking back, what use do you think you would have today by having it in university? I'm asking because I don't think such a help solving the exams would have helped in your career later. Yes, would have made an easier university time, and left you less prepared for after that. We can (continue to) use ChatGPT for everything, it's just this will be also eroding our own capacity to do that thing, less exercise of our mental muscle. Maths and puzzles are said to help maintaining mental health with age, by outsourcing them to AI we also lose faster our own I.

Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#37

Post by hackeraccount »

louwrentius wrote: post #13

I believe it’s a good thing if the HN crowd steps out of their bubble and inform themselves a bit more on topics of capitalism, socialism and communism. I feel more and more that those in power - the capitalists - have done a tremendous job of conditioning us from birth in the last 100+ years that capitalism is “the only way”. Yet if you read a book like “Debt: the first 5000 years” by David Graeber, it put things in…

Graeber's book was easily one of the most annoying books I've read in the last 10 years. It's worth reading though in the same way that some bad movies are worth watching - it will give you the chance to figure out just what's wrong with the world view it espouses and you can't really appreciate the critiques of it unless you know the source.

Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#38

Post by imtringued »

soco wrote: post #36
roenxi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although "we do linear regression ... in this transformed space" is correct, it also isn't an attempt to understand what exponential growth in processing power implies. That is an attempt (really, a success) at providing a definition of what exponential growth is [0]. Implications involves things like https://ourworldindata.org/brief-history-of-ai + little extrapolation. Interestingly, as I look at that article, it a…

> I wish I'd had that when I was at University. Looking back, what use do you think you would have today by having it in university? I'm asking because I don't think such a help solving the exams would have helped in your career later. Yes, would have made an easier university time, and left you less prepared for after that. We can (continue to) use ChatGPT for everything, it's just this will be also eroding our own…

His wish is akin to "I wish the AI lived my entire life for me".

Re: ‘Capitalism is dead. Now we have something much worse’

#39

Post by roenxi »

imtringued wrote: post #38
soco wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish I'd had that when I was at University. Looking back, what use do you think you would have today by having it in university? I'm asking because I don't think such a help solving the exams would have helped in your career later. Yes, would have made an easier university time, and left you less prepared for after that. We can (continue to) use ChatGPT for everything, it's just this will be also eroding our own…

His wish is akin to "I wish the AI lived my entire life for me".

You're being melodramatic. Humans have made extensive use of tools since well before the dawn of recorded history. There is nothing unusual about someone wanting to use a tool.

I find it easier to learn when someone (now, something) intelligent is on hand to explain the material. You both must be geniuses or psychics, because otherwise it is not clear how you gentlemen intend to learn otherwise.

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