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Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

theguardian.com

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Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#21

Post by ajdude »

GlumWoodpecker wrote: post #5

Powerful article. What strikes me as a layman (non-lawyer, non-law enforcement), is how prevalent these methods of forensic science have become, without any solid scientific basis backing them up - such as peer reviewed studies with quantifiable evidence. You'd think that in order for the state to take the life of a human being, you'd need to prove it using means that are more thoroughly vetted than "[one doctor] who…

Reminds me of the case of when a man was wrongfully convicted by expert testimony placing them at the scene by hair microscopy. He spent 30 years in prison:

> In Tribble’s case, the FBI agent testified at trial that the hair from the stocking matched Tribble’s “in all microscopic characteristics.”

> In closing arguments, federal prosecutor David Stanley went further: “There is one chance, perhaps for all we know, in 10 million that it could [be] someone else’s hair.”

It was dog hair.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/dc-judge-exonerat...

Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#22

Post by riffraff »

GlumWoodpecker wrote: post #5

Powerful article. What strikes me as a layman (non-lawyer, non-law enforcement), is how prevalent these methods of forensic science have become, without any solid scientific basis backing them up - such as peer reviewed studies with quantifiable evidence. You'd think that in order for the state to take the life of a human being, you'd need to prove it using means that are more thoroughly vetted than "[one doctor] who…

I'm afraid the whole field of medicine moves forward by screw ups and fixes, and as such forensics are just another place.

In "Factfulness" the late Hans Rosling mentions how he spent years telling people to not keep babies sleeping on their back, based on science were people believed babies might suffocate more easily.

This turned out to be the opposite of truth, babies are more likely to die when sleeping on their belly. For years, doctors , him included, may have indirectly killed babies trying to save them.

OTOH, the unreliability of our tools makes a strong case against the death penalty, IMO.

Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#23

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

The way death row inmates are treated is arguably a reason to be against death row. There was also a case where a person on death row couldn’t present exculpatory evidence to prove his innocence because his last appeals lawyer didn’t do it. The Supreme Court literally decided you can prove you have evidence that proves your innocence, that you were done dirty by an incompetent lawyer, it doesn’t matter, you should still be killed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinn_v._Ramirez

Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#24

Post by couchand »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #17
GlumWoodpecker wrote: post #5

Powerful article. What strikes me as a layman (non-lawyer, non-law enforcement), is how prevalent these methods of forensic science have become, without any solid scientific basis backing them up - such as peer reviewed studies with quantifiable evidence. You'd think that in order for the state to take the life of a human being, you'd need to prove it using means that are more thoroughly vetted than "[one doctor] who…

You sometimes get the stereotypical esoteric forensics experts, who tour the country saying they have some special ability to identify bites or toeprints or whatever. I pretty much agree with you there; their methods are unproven, there's very little reason to think they can actually do what they claim, judges simply shouldn't let them testify. This case is harder. Medical questions about what happened to a victim ar…

A judge can and should seek confirmation from additional experts, and if some then reasonably cast doubt on the certainty of others' testimony, that ought to be considered.

Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#25

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

couchand wrote: post #24
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sometimes get the stereotypical esoteric forensics experts, who tour the country saying they have some special ability to identify bites or toeprints or whatever. I pretty much agree with you there; their methods are unproven, there's very little reason to think they can actually do what they claim, judges simply shouldn't let them testify. This case is harder. Medical questions about what happened to a victim ar…

A judge can and should seek confirmation from additional experts, and if some then reasonably cast doubt on the certainty of others' testimony, that ought to be considered.

It's not really a judge's role to go out and find witnesses. Defendants can, but as the article describes, "shaken baby syndrome" was official guidance from the American Academy of Pediatrics at the time.

Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#27

Post by ceejayoz »

jdechko wrote: post #10
GlumWoodpecker wrote: post #5

Powerful article. What strikes me as a layman (non-lawyer, non-law enforcement), is how prevalent these methods of forensic science have become, without any solid scientific basis backing them up - such as peer reviewed studies with quantifiable evidence. You'd think that in order for the state to take the life of a human being, you'd need to prove it using means that are more thoroughly vetted than "[one doctor] who…

I’m sure the dozens of TV shows don’t help this either. Law and Order is never wrong and their science and methods are flawless. Obviously I’m being sarcastic, but I think it clouds the jury’s thought process

Yup. Known as the CSI effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSI_effect

Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#28

Post by boomboomsubban »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #23

The way death row inmates are treated is arguably a reason to be against death row. There was also a case where a person on death row couldn’t present exculpatory evidence to prove his innocence because his last appeals lawyer didn’t do it. The Supreme Court literally decided you can prove you have evidence that proves your innocence, that you were done dirty by an incompetent lawyer, it doesn’t matter, you should st…

One of the other death row inmates mentioned in the article as having failed the junk science law, Kosoul Chanthakoummane, was partly convicted for hypnosis induced testimony. The appeal response on calling it junk science was, paraphrased, "hypnosis induced testimony was known to be bogus in ~2005, when your trial was. You should have argued it then."

That alone is terrible. But to make that bullshit even worse, Texas continued to use hypnosis induced testimony until 2021.

It makes me wonder when the last death penalty sentence for "shaken baby syndrome" was in Texas.

Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#29

Post by Grimburger »

GlumWoodpecker wrote: post #5

Powerful article. What strikes me as a layman (non-lawyer, non-law enforcement), is how prevalent these methods of forensic science have become, without any solid scientific basis backing them up - such as peer reviewed studies with quantifiable evidence. You'd think that in order for the state to take the life of a human being, you'd need to prove it using means that are more thoroughly vetted than "[one doctor] who…

The closed source DNA testing code used daily just raises so many red flags. It's honestly concerning how basically no one in the legal community understands why this is an issue. This stuff is way too important to be proprietary.

Re: Texas death row inmate at mercy of supreme court, and junk science

#30

Post by vorpalhex »

kitanata wrote: post #3

Here is an uncomfortable truth. This man is in prison because of ableism. This is why body language “experts” are grifters and charlatans. This is why you shouldn’t convict people on a hunch, and why as a professional you don’t say shit you are unqualified to say. Ableism kills.

No he's in prison because multiple witnesses testified they saw him shake and hit and scream at his child for crying, repeatedly.
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