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LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

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Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#141

Post by lifthrasiir »

mercutio2 wrote: post #105

Responding to a variety of questions made over the years about this: This is a constant intended to be displayed after localizing the constant . Its localized value will primarily be displayed to users whose preferred languages have a short word describing the relationship. But it ALSO needs at least some comprehensible localization in EVERY language, because I can send you a vcard for myself labeling this specific t…

> The constant embeds everything that an English-speaking localizer needs to explain the relationship in a different language. That’s why something like the [proposal] (just use the Chinese name for this relationship) would not be an improvement.

I don't exactly agree. Note that this constant embeds two terms, exactly because this particular kinship term does not distinguish them. In the other word this constant can only reasonably used in the Chinese kinship system, and others will be confused regardless of whether it's translated or not. The reasonable UI should group such labels into some dedicated section like "Extended families (Chinese system)" so that they don't need to be translated literally. Same for other kinship systems, of course.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#143

Post by steve_adams_86 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #129
prosody wrote: post #36

Of possible interest to HNers, kinship terminology of different cultures is a subject that has a very elegant taxonomy. It was a major line of inquiry in early modern sociology, which tried to link other attributes of how societies were structured to how they named relations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinship_terminology

Yes, this is a modern post Industrial Revolution phenomenon. In the distant past, when you met someone new, they asked who you are in relation to your tribe and family. Now, they ask what you do for the economy as an economic unit. It’s fun to rebel against the current culture by asking someone who they are instead of what they do.

Something I find sad about this is that many people really don’t know how to think about themselves in that context; in this way we aren’t a someone to other people so much as a something.

I know this isn’t a firm rule, but there are many people in my life who I’m certain wouldn’t have a good grasp of how they fit into their family and community beyond fairly superficial platitudes.

Maybe this has been true in the past as well. I wouldn’t know.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#144

Post by davidgay »

flangola7 wrote: post #137
oceanghost wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't speak Armenian, but I dated an Armenian woman once, and she told me they have words for familial relationships that we didn't really have concepts for in English.

Like what? English already has all the "twice removed" and other definitions that no one actually uses.

Not Armenian, but, e.g., Bulgarian has a distinct name for the relation of two husbands of (not in-law) sisters. In English, that's just one of the "brother in-law" cases.

On the whole, Bulgarian has far more such relationship words than English.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#145

Post by eitland »

flangola7 wrote: post #137
oceanghost wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't speak Armenian, but I dated an Armenian woman once, and she told me they have words for familial relationships that we didn't really have concepts for in English.

Like what? English already has all the "twice removed" and other definitions that no one actually uses.

I am fairly sure English doesn't have (or at least does not use) separate everyday words for farmor/farfar (fathers mother / fathers mother) or mormor/morfar (same for mothers parents).

Sure in academic language there is probably a way to describe it (edit: and the concept is easy to explain) but there is nothing quick that you can use to tell a kid so they immediately know which of the grandparents we are going to visit without naming them or the location they live in somehow?

Even among the words that do exist, like "siblings", I have a feeling that in some dialects or sociolects it isn't used and people say "brothers and sisters" instead. (I'm not sure about this last one but I have worked with a lot of English and American people over the years and it does feel this way).

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#146

Post by ljm »

lifthrasiir wrote: post #141
mercutio2 wrote: post #105

Responding to a variety of questions made over the years about this: This is a constant intended to be displayed after localizing the constant . Its localized value will primarily be displayed to users whose preferred languages have a short word describing the relationship. But it ALSO needs at least some comprehensible localization in EVERY language, because I can send you a vcard for myself labeling this specific t…

> The constant embeds everything that an English-speaking localizer needs to explain the relationship in a different language. That’s why something like the [proposal] (just use the Chinese name for this relationship) would not be an improvement. I don't exactly agree. Note that this constant embeds two terms, exactly because this particular kinship term does not distinguish them. In the other word this constant can…

Custom fields that are important in some cultures and not others would sound reasonable, compared to trying to account for all of it in code.

That’s what databases are for after all. You can’t encode every possible version of a familial relationship as a constant.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#147

Post by Agentlien »

oceanghost wrote: post #121
jes5199 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are there multiple languages that have this exact relationship concept? because if it’s in a single language or family of languages, the idea that it can be translates into something generic seems questionable

I don't speak Armenian, but I dated an Armenian woman once, and she told me they have words for familial relationships that we didn't really have concepts for in English.

In Swedish our words for many relationships follow a very simple system of composing relationships. A few examples:

Mor = mother

Far = father

Bror = brother

Morfar = mother's father

Farfar = father's father

Farmor = father's mother

Farfar = father's father

Farbror = father's brother

Morbror = mother's brother

...

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#148

Post by ShamelessC »

henshao wrote: post #101

As someone of asian descent, I find it interesting how so many of these comments have such a stereotypical software engineer's "why don't they just XYZ" statement and its pretty eye opening. I know I'm guilty of this at times too, but this example is really funny to me, and I guess I'll try rein in my assumptions that people are irrational in the future.

This pattern is pretty common on HN. Shallow dismissal and or overconfident alternative solution coming from those without any domain expertise (but that's okay because knowing how to code magically makes your ideas worth entertaining apparently).

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#149

Post by hervature »

eitland wrote: post #145
flangola7 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what? English already has all the "twice removed" and other definitions that no one actually uses.

I am fairly sure English doesn't have (or at least does not use) separate everyday words for farmor/farfar (fathers mother / fathers mother) or mormor/morfar (same for mothers parents). Sure in academic language there is probably a way to describe it (edit: and the concept is easy to explain) but there is nothing quick that you can use to tell a kid so they immediately know which of the grandparents we are going to v…

I can't tell if this is serious. I don't even know which language you're using but it is literally no different than mom's mom and dad's mom other than a space.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#150

Post by thristian »

chrismorgan wrote: post #93
dang wrote: post #12

Related: CNLabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaught - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28712667 - Sept 2021 (132 comments) CNLabelContactRelation​YoungerCousin​MothersSiblingsDaughter​OrFathersSistersDaughter - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20341855 - July 2019 (176 comments) Oh no. Am I going to have to figur…

> ​ I’m curious how that ended up the entity name for U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE.

Wikipedia says¹:

> Although `​` is one HTML5 named entity for U+200B, the additional names `NegativeMediumSpace`, `NegativeThickSpace`, `NegativeThinSpace` and `NegativeVeryThinSpace` (which are names used in the Wolfram Language for negative-advance spaces, which it maps to the Private Use Area) are also defined by HTML5 as aliases for U+200B (e.g. `​`).

Following links, it looks like somebody went through a bunch of mathematics software looking for all the symbol names somebody might be used to, so they could be added to the official list of named entities.

¹: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_character_property#Whi...

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