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Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

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Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#301
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that good advice? If my father dies, why is it bad to be sad about it? Why is it wrong to cry when I’m sad? I think you’re completely off base in trying to make “respond rationally and with no emotion, ever” a universal rule, especially with regards to interacting with other people. It’s weird and robotic.

I am going to assume you are misunderstanding what I said rather than intentionally responding to what I didn't say, so here it goes: I did not say don't be sad. I sad don't react emotionally, instead understand the emotion you are feeling, identify the why and respond rationally to the why. It's not bad to be sad, it's bad to allow the sadness to force you into a stupid reaction. In your example the actual good advi…

But that’s very much not what you responded to, nor is it even similar. What you responded to was “real men don’t cry.”

Whatever you were trying to add was within that context, thus my reply. “Real men don’t cry” is not well-intentioned, nor is it just a poorly worded version of good advice.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#302

Richard Reeves is originally from the left, and there is a podcast interview of him by Ezra Klein (titled "the boys are not alright"). In the interview he describes how he was drawn to feminism and looking at gender inequality, and by looking at the data became convinced that boys and men were a neglected cause. He was then frustrated as other researchers and policy people had no interest in that form of inequality.…

Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a…

Many people (especially men) translate "toxic masculinity" as "masculinity is toxic", which is not the message. Rather, certain aspects of masculinity can be toxic. "Don't share/express your feelings", "Discard/disparage the weak", "real men don't need help", etc. A big part of toxic masculinity is taking aspects of masculinity too far. Teaching your son (or daughter!) how to change the oil and having them help you is fantastic. Calling them a wuss if they don't want to do it and forcing them to do it while they are crying because they are so upset is toxic masculinity. I have a teenage son, and if he was upset about doing chores, I would stop and talk about it with him. Help him understand, by sharing my feelings, that I, too, often hate doing chores, but that if you can figure out the right approach, you can make it an ok thing to do.

Having feelings is natural and good, learning to feel the feelings without reacting without thought is something you can do. Talking about life is good, but complaining about everything is bad.

Independence is great, but relying on others in a community is also great! Being tough is awesome, ignoring others feelings all the time and making fun of people who are struggling is bad.

If you want to find out what toxic masculinity is, why haven't you read about it or watch any of the numerous videos about the subject?

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#303

Recently the CDC shared an analysis on suicide statistics. As one might expect, they concluded that there's disparities between demographics. And so they dutifully listed them: LGBTQ+, indigenous people, vets, various other groups. Except for that one stat staring them in the face. The chart to crush all other charts. MEN. Whom commit suicide at a rate of 5x compared to women, and rising. That chart was not included…

>The suicide rate among males in 2021 was approximately four times higher than the rate among females. Males make up 50% of the population but nearly 80% of suicides. https://www.cdc.gov/suicide/suicide-data-statistics.html It appears that your comment is false?

That link agrees with them, ~40k male vs ~10k female, that's ~80% of suicides are male.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#304
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Honestly, it sounds like you need some new friends and to stop listening to Jordan Peterson. And what about those who experience this effect, and have always actively avoided Peterson and his ilk? When you find out rumours are spreading about you after you've opened up, you can separate yourself from that community, but where does that leave a person? What do you think happens when someone tries to join a new commun…

I assume from the "rumors are spreading" you're talking about a high school situation - in which case that'll stop pretty quickly when you get to college (or full time work), so just tough it out. If you're a grown adult and have rumors following you around, just find a new friends group. If your town is so small that you can't escape that, seriously just move? If it's a job and the culture is gossip, it's probably t…

> so just tough it out

Congrats, you have just advocated for what's called "toxic masculinity".

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#305

Or - crazy idea - don't politicize mental health at all ?? I don't read the news or social media, so it's bizarre to me when someone tries to divert a basic human concern into a political agenda. Mental health is important no matter what political spectrum you're on, and treatment isn't political, it's healthcare.

Is hacker news not social media? Serious question. I always thought it was. Not that Wikipedia is authoritative or anything but it seems to meet their definition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_media

The term "social media" became popular with profile-oriented sites like MySpace and Facebook, and for a lot of people like myself, refer to that type of site. They're about being social, not about topics, like forums are (which predate profile-oriented sites). By that standard, HN isn't social media.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#306
post #304
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume from the "rumors are spreading" you're talking about a high school situation - in which case that'll stop pretty quickly when you get to college (or full time work), so just tough it out. If you're a grown adult and have rumors following you around, just find a new friends group. If your town is so small that you can't escape that, seriously just move? If it's a job and the culture is gossip, it's probably t…

> so just tough it out Congrats, you have just advocated for what's called "toxic masculinity".

>Congrats, you have just advocated for what's called "toxic masculinity".

No, I've just advocated for: high school sucks. It has literally nothing to do with being a guy. I would and have said the same thing to girls dealing with asshole classmates. At some point your options are find a new school, or just grin and bear it because your life is a different place after HS. Most high schoolers don't have the option of a different school.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#307
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume from the "rumors are spreading" you're talking about a high school situation - in which case that'll stop pretty quickly when you get to college (or full time work), so just tough it out. If you're a grown adult and have rumors following you around, just find a new friends group. If your town is so small that you can't escape that, seriously just move? If it's a job and the culture is gossip, it's probably t…

I agree with "tough it up" to a large degree. However, the funny thing about people like you is you would never say "though it up" to a woman yet you would claim "women and men are equal" disingenuous

I literally have said that to a woman who was having a tough time her sr. year of high school with catty girls in her grade. There was no avoiding them, the behavior didn't rise to the level the school was going to do anything, and she wasn't in a position to transfer.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#308
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/01/30/whats-the-matt... Here's an example from earlier this year. The primary difference from the most common ways I hear about it from the right is the lack of a "one simple trick to fix it" prescription. It is more limited to a survey of some of the proposed causes and actions.

For context, I wouldn't say I'm left or right, because both parties have good and bad things about them. That being said, the first thing I noticed with that link was the title. Why is it implying it's Men's fault? > What's the matter with Men? Imagine if on a similarly gendered topic, say abortion, someone published an article with the title "What's wrong with Women." Everyone would be up in arms over it.

I don’t think either of those titles imply fault.

Similarly, if you saw Johnny or Suzy crying on the playground, you might ask, “what’s the matter?” That’s not implying they did something bad, it’s asking what hurt them or upset them, in a slightly colloquial way.

I think jumping straight to “why are they implying this is men’s fault” is, ultimately, the perspective you’re already bringing to a very benign article title, and the fact you reacted immediately that way instead of assuming good intentions and reading a bit of the content is a reflection on how some folks have decided that “toxic masculinity”, for instance, is a vile attack on men instead of a descriptor for vile things perpetuated on men.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When all the men got together and voted for women to also have the vote, that was toxic masculinity at work. (this is a joke, but also not really. Women shifting the political map towards larger government and more socialism seems to be the root of most of our current problems. It's kind of a big problem because women should very clearly be allowed to vote but at the same time I don't know how to reconcile that with…

> When all the men got together and voted for women to also have the vote, that was toxic masculinity at work. (this is a joke, but also not really. Women shifting the political map towards larger government and more socialism seems to be the root of most of our current problems. This seems like a really flawed and backwards take. What evidence do you have that supports your incredibly vague statement that women’s ab…

The claim was that big government was the root of most of our current problems and women in turn tend to vote for bigger government (and socialism but I used the lower case s on socialism which does not mean the Socialist party, it means a diverse group of potential policies that are all characterized by some group that isn't an individual and is usually the government owning some subset of assets and providing some subset of services)

Go look at the polling records across time and you see women voting for bigger government by way of voting for groups that have policies that ensure larger government (they are not the only group doing this, they are just the group we are talking about now. Single men also lean problematic in their voting patterns for example).

Talking about the Socialist party here is the wrong metric to use because it encompassed truly nutty groups that had no chance of being elected (from agricultural commune supporters to straight up communists). If you look at the subsets that actually got elected (i.e. the sewer socialists) they ran on policies like old age pensions, employment insurance, public housing, public health care and other big government welfare programs. Pretty much all this stuff had been subsumed into the big parties by the 1960's and was actually being implemented, so why would you ever expect the Socialist party to continue existing? All their electable policies (that became much more electable with women gaining the right to vote) were adopted by mainstream, usually democrat candidates who subsequently were elected. Subsequently all these programs form part of the big government problem we have today.

You see the above in the USA but you also see it in my home country of Canada, most recently with the current oaf running things federally, who has been kept in power by women voters not changing their vote when it became obvious he was doing likely criminal things while pursuing a suicidal spending platform at home and making us the laughing stock of the world stage with his antics.

Anyways, this is not to say women shouldn't have the vote, they very clearly should have the vote. My original post was mostly about how we integrate the clearly correct idea that women should be able to vote with the clearly correct idea that their voting patterns are causing a lot of our current problems. I think the actual correct solution is some other system of limiting suffrage to only those who clearly have long term skin in the game, as to what that would look like I am not certain. It could take the form of limiting voting to citizens who currently have at least 50 % custody/responsibility for a child of theirs or have X number of years of at least 50% custody/responsibility for a child of their under their belts. Or perhaps requiring citizens to post an income adjust long term bond to vote and have that bond be the first risk of loss if the government runs a deficit of a certain amount for more than 1 year. The challenge with limiting suffrage is having the rule be simple enough that gaming it is very difficult, while being strong enough to actually cut out enough of the people with no incentive to think long term about the country that they can't drive us into bureaucratic ruin.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#310
post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am going to assume you are misunderstanding what I said rather than intentionally responding to what I didn't say, so here it goes: I did not say don't be sad. I sad don't react emotionally, instead understand the emotion you are feeling, identify the why and respond rationally to the why. It's not bad to be sad, it's bad to allow the sadness to force you into a stupid reaction. In your example the actual good advi…

But that’s very much not what you responded to, nor is it even similar. What you responded to was “real men don’t cry.” Whatever you were trying to add was within that context, thus my reply. “Real men don’t cry” is not well-intentioned, nor is it just a poorly worded version of good advice.

I called it the crass version of good advice given in the worst possible way with deceptive context, which is true. I cannot recall a single instance of someone saying the original statement and not meaning some form of what I provided for context in my personal life outside of hollywood movies, where it seems to have become this toxic masculinity trope rather than a failure of explanation likely caused by a failure at heeding the actual advice themselves and reacting emotionally.
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