131–140 of 327 posts
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The overwhelming way the left talks about it is in terms of "toxic" masculinity or through the perspective of feminism. The latter is a valid perspective, but dominates the discourse which is hardly a balanced approach.
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as someone who has largely progressive values, I hesitate to call myself liberal anymore because of a lot of the downright embarrasing shit comming from the left these days. > The left talks about this all of the time, every time I've seen leftists talk about this. its always in the form of gaslighting men into blaming themselves for their failures. as if the k-12 educational system isn't currently stacked against th…
Stacked against them more than girls? Explain please.
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> Women had less rights for a long time Women always had different kinds of rights, like expressing themselves more with emotions and clothing and cosmetics, etc., and taking care of children. Men don't have these rights. A man working in daycare is frowned upon. A man wearing eyeshadow is frowned upon, a man sending heart ♥ emoticons in WhatsApp is frowned upon, etc. It seems fair that if women claim more rights, th…
Those aren't political rights, those are social norms. If a man does any of those things, it's frowned upon, but if a woman tried to vote in the 19th century she'd be thrown in jail. I'm totally on board with people wearing whatever, it's a free country, but equating political rights with social norms is a false dichotomy.
I disagree with the headline that "the left needs to talk about it" because fundamentally we do every day. The problem is that men tense up when we talk about things like "patriarchy" and "feminism", despite every piece of literature that explains that patriarchy and traditional (toxic) masculinity are actively harmful for men too. So men aren't listening to leftist talk about these issues and need to be baby-fed them using different words.
The left talks about this all of the time, as do the middle and right. Pretending otherwise makes me question whether the author is actually trying to help or simply sell his book.
I'm curious, can you give examples? I hear this issue pretty loudly from the right, but not really much from the left. I know ordinary people talk about this issue, but it isn't the same as people in positions of power or influence.
However, I also think it is complicated. We can't talk about progressive policies while ignoring the very real advantages that men (largely white men, which I am one) have had for many years.
That doesn't mean that men should suffer while we work towards a more equal society. But to some degree there may be a need to take a back seat and there will be some unavoidable pain along the way especially while what you have been conditioned towards changes.
But there are pieces that I agree with. Mental health being a big one. There is still a lot of stigma around mental health for men. A lot of this comes from a toxic masculinity view (which to be clear I have seen some women contribute to this view as well) that it makes you "less of a man" or whatever and men not getting the help that they need. This does go beyond just mental health but just the idea of asking for help making it seem like you are some sort of failure.
I feel like a lot of us here are likely in a more progressive environment. I mean just Monday I was out with dinner with friends, I happened to have a psych evaluation and got my results that day and I mentioned it because I was curious about others thoughts and opinions. I can say the same thing about coworkers or even my Boss. But having family and friends in far less progressive parts of this country does make me believe that attitudes like this are still the exception in the US.
We still have a long way to go for mental health for everyone in this country and (based on my experience) there is still a ton of stigma for men and it really is ignored my the left for the most part.
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I believe what the OP is getting at is the masculinity discussion on the left is predominantly about what not to do while the discussion on the right is more often about what to do. If the left doesn’t provide a framework and examples of what positive masculinity looks like it presents a risk of young impressionable people draping themselves over the framework that is being provided by others.
My dad would tell other men "don't be a pussy," an attitude that is far from dead on the right. I've read a lot of advice from left, "men, seek therapy." I'm not sure that either side has a monopoly on positive/negative framing.
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> Women had less rights for a long time Women always had different kinds of rights, like expressing themselves more with emotions and clothing and cosmetics, etc., and taking care of children. Men don't have these rights. A man working in daycare is frowned upon. A man wearing eyeshadow is frowned upon, a man sending heart ♥ emoticons in WhatsApp is frowned upon, etc. It seems fair that if women claim more rights, th…
Those aren't political rights, those are social norms. If a man does any of those things, it's frowned upon, but if a woman tried to vote in the 19th century she'd be thrown in jail. I'm totally on board with people wearing whatever, it's a free country, but equating political rights with social norms is a false dichotomy.
But one begets the other, no? See also all this noise from TN and FL about crossdressing being a sex offense. People are more okay with women looking masculine than men looking feminine, and now we're seeing laws that reflect that.
Similarly, because men aren't viewed as nurturing or whatever, they're far more likely to lose custody cases in court. There's absolutely tight bindings between political rights and social norms, and similarly I think there's a lot to be learned from the contrast between men and women's distinct challenges.
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My problem besides pure misandrists hiding behind feminism is the quasi-marxist idea that men are a separate species that exploits women. As opposed to the reality that ordinary men are exploited as much but different. In particular you see pointless bashing of young men. Who are actually at the very bottom of the patriarcal order, completely disposable and a seen mostly as fodder. So punching at young men is actuall…
> In particular you see pointless bashing of young men Examples? >the quasi-marxist idea that men are a separate species that exploits women How is that quasi-marxist?
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I believe what the OP is getting at is the masculinity discussion on the left is predominantly about what not to do while the discussion on the right is more often about what to do. If the left doesn’t provide a framework and examples of what positive masculinity looks like it presents a risk of young impressionable people draping themselves over the framework that is being provided by others.
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Did you read the article you are commenting on? He mentions that schools don't service men very well and that most dropouts are men
> But overall, young men hit the labor market or college or whatever less well-prepared as a result of the education system. No facts about it, just some random assertion. Schools aren't going to change the way males relate to playing games, sports, and farting around in general compared with actually studying. What other part of the article did I miss? Oh, this: > the education system isn’t doing very well by lots o…
You would be surprised. A boy having a male mentor is extremely helpful. Oftentimes an adult male can connect with boys in ways that an adult female might have trouble with. Teachers, for better or worse, are mentors. They are who kids spend the most time around during school semesters, and where they receive the most instruction, outside of parents.
Now don't get me wrong. Boys can absolutely succeed without a male teacher in their lives, and it's great that we have lots of female teachers. But it is absolutely helpful for a boy to have a man to look up to in some fashion.
This article makes a lot of good points about it, though its more about mentorship in general instead of male mentorship:
https://www.edutopia.org/blog/boys-need-power-of-mentoring-b...