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Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

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Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#121

Post by rootusrootus »

cultofmetatron wrote: post #44
acdha wrote: post #11

The left talks about this all of the time, as do the middle and right. Pretending otherwise makes me question whether the author is actually trying to help or simply sell his book.

as someone who has largely progressive values, I hesitate to call myself liberal anymore because of a lot of the downright embarrasing shit comming from the left these days. > The left talks about this all of the time, every time I've seen leftists talk about this. its always in the form of gaslighting men into blaming themselves for their failures. as if the k-12 educational system isn't currently stacked against th…

It is one of the reasons I self-identify as an independent now, instead of a lifelong liberal. Somewhere along the line the left decided that the best way to achieve equality was to drag down the 'privileged' rather than elevating the disadvantaged.

And they continue to wonder why the right has enjoyed such a resurgence across the world. Looking for any reason, any explanation that does not require a mirror.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#122

Post by vehemenz »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #91
crazygringo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically all of the liberal publications treat it as a major topic every so often. A hugely shared article from 2 months ago in WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/10/christine... Also in the Atlantic last year: https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/10/21-r... This is just off the top of my head, but it's easy to do a Google search.

Has the Overton window shifted to the right so much that The Atlantic is now considered liberal? It always seemed pretty centrist.

It's been a liberal publication for a long time. I think you might have it backwards though. If the Overton window shifts right, then The Atlantic would be considered more liberal, wouldn't it? If anything, some of the other journalistic institutions jumped the shark a bit from 2015-2020, which might make The Atlantic look more centrist than it really is, though it remains fundamentally liberal.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#123

Post by belltaco »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #82
mellosouls wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming way the left talks about it is in terms of "toxic" masculinity or through the perspective of feminism. The latter is a valid perspective, but dominates the discourse which is hardly a balanced approach.

My problem besides pure misandrists hiding behind feminism is the quasi-marxist idea that men are a separate species that exploits women. As opposed to the reality that ordinary men are exploited as much but different. In particular you see pointless bashing of young men. Who are actually at the very bottom of the patriarcal order, completely disposable and a seen mostly as fodder. So punching at young men is actuall…

> In particular you see pointless bashing of young men

Examples?

>the quasi-marxist idea that men are a separate species that exploits women

How is that quasi-marxist?

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#124

Post by MarkMarine »

hosh wrote: post #10
diogenes4 wrote: post #3

The left does talk about it. Ridiculous article from jacobin.

Do you have some links to articles about this topic from the left? I typically hear this from the right and have yet to hear something from the left, and I'm curious about how it's framed and understood.

Chapo Trap House talks about it all the time. And that’s way more left than any of these ridiculous mainstream media publications

Here is one: https://youtu.be/dxdlR_ESJFA?si=tGaUPLTzoh5oNQCh

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#125

Post by ap99 »

wait_what wrote: post #77
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't go that far. I think he's just reflecting typical blue collar culture which tends to be more conservative

No, he doesn't. He straight up attacked Bernie on the College for All saying that we all don't need college, which is true. But the College for All bill included non-college related education and secondary education like trade schools and training programs. But he decided to ignore all of that to squeeze his head up Trumps ass and bitch about a program designed to give America blue collar people a fighting chance.

It's possible that College for All was a bad bill overall but happened to have a few good parts.

e.g. CANCELS $1.6 TRILLION IN STUDENT DEBT FOR 45 MILLION AMERICANS

The fact sheet says it would pay for all of this (in total $2.2 trillion) by taxing Wall Street speculation. So, somehow create a tax that represents almost 10% of total US GDP to cancel student debt and allow all future college to be almost free.

I can't imagine any world where that would actually happen. Bernie is living in the clouds.

This isn't giving anyone a fighting chance because it's not an actual, feasible solution.

Ref: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/college-fo...

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#126

Post by FireBeyond »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #36
diogenes4 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mike Rowe is a blatant shill for anti-labor practices and it's clear even in this clip.

I wouldn't go that far. I think he's just reflecting typical blue collar culture which tends to be more conservative

> In April 2021, when asked about the debate about raising the minimum wage, Rowe said, "I worry that the path to a skilled trade can be compromised when you offer an artificially high wage for, I hate the expression, but an unskilled job."

Very much an advocate for the working man, there.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#127

Post by quantified »

danjoredd wrote: post #118
quantified wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stacked against them more than girls? Explain please.

Did you read the article you are commenting on? He mentions that schools don't service men very well and that most dropouts are men

> But overall, young men hit the labor market or college or whatever less well-prepared as a result of the education system.

No facts about it, just some random assertion. Schools aren't going to change the way males relate to playing games, sports, and farting around in general compared with actually studying.

What other part of the article did I miss? Oh, this:

> the education system isn’t doing very well by lots of our boys and men now. We have a ten percentage point drop in the share of male teachers, incredible underinvestment in apprenticeships and vocational forms of learning, and all kinds of changes in school environments that mean that we’re not serving them very well.

What changes in environments? Vocational means simply that boys don't do desks and paper well- is that true? Do male teachers make that much difference? The thrust here is that the economy has left men behind. Maybe that's true, which is more important.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#128

Post by ClumsyPilot »

jokoon wrote: post #18

[flagged]

> Are they struggling, but as opposed to what when compared to women

It is not required to achieve maximum level of struggling. All that is required, is that Men’s issues are distinct, for instance they die younger, and advice given to women isn’t applicable.

> patriarchal values are compatible with capitalism

Perhaps, but I don’t think Christian values are really compatible with it and yet no one seems to die of the cognitive dissonance. People have a surprising ability to believe in mutually exclusive things at the same time.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#129

Post by WatchDog »

diogenes4 wrote: post #12
hathawsh wrote: post #7

For another take, here is what the right is saying. Worth a listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x17ip3ZwG0Q

Mike Rowe is a blatant shill for anti-labor practices and it's clear even in this clip.

You probably just disagree with him about what constitutes anti-labor practices.

I can't think of many other public figures that have spent as much time as him, advocating for blue collar work.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#130

Post by FireBeyond »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #57
jokoon wrote: post #18

[flagged]

> Are they struggling, but as opposed to what when compared to women? Boys and men do worse on a number of things compared to girls and women within, say, US society: * Worse grades in school * More frequently disciplined in school * Lower college attendance and graduation rates * Weaker friend networks/less emotional support for adult men * More likely to be imprisoned/found guilty of crimes (especially violent ones…

> * Worse grades in school

This has gone back as far as the 90s. My school, and many in my state, offered coed math and coed science classes, and female-only math, science classes.

A few years of this and they found boys grades had decreased and at an alarming rate. Surprise was expressed by some.

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