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A basic guide to using Asian names

asiamediacentre.org.nz

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Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#191

Post by dragonwriter »

mumintrollet wrote: post #190
sbehere wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fascinating. Thank you for commenting. As an Indian living in the West, I have always wondered why/how certain differences that are stark to my ears are subtle or barely perceptible to others. The converse is also true. For example, the way native Swedish speakers pronounce seven (sju - example pronunciations at https://forvo.com/word/sju/ ) is 1) Hard for me to say and 2) No matter how I say it, the response…

> But English words do seem to distinguish meaningfully between what you term 'voiceless' and 'aspirated voiceless' isn't it? For example, there is a difference between 'time' and 'thyme'. Ignoring the difference between 'y' and 'i' for a moment, wouldn't both words be the "same" to English speakers if what you are saying is true? Aspiration is not contrastive in English - it's impossible to find two words that diffe…

> For example, there is a difference between 'time' and 'thyme'. Ignoring the difference between 'y' and 'i' for a moment, wouldn't both words be the "same" to English speakers if what you are saying is true?

But they are the same; both are pronounced (in traditional IPA) as /taɪm/

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#192

Post by earthboundkid »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #105
earthboundkid wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a little bit of a complicated issue. On the one hand, my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American. That’s a totally normal thing, and it’s weird to complain about it. In Japan, they were often confused about which of my names was personal and which was for my family, and they never quite figured out the deal with my middle name / initial. Cultures are different, and you can’t expect everyone…

> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English This isn’t the case. I have a formal background in linguistics and have a vague familiarity with the Indic branch of the Indo-European languages in general, and I still occasionally screw up in pronouncing Hindi (or other Indian languages’) words that are written in informal Latin transliteration. Most notably, whether the sound written denotes [ə] or [aː] is often ambiguous…

It's not ambiguous if the macrons are included, but yes, in everyday texts, the macrons are often dropped.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#193

Post by earthboundkid »

RandallBrown wrote: post #129
earthboundkid wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a little bit of a complicated issue. On the one hand, my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American. That’s a totally normal thing, and it’s weird to complain about it. In Japan, they were often confused about which of my names was personal and which was for my family, and they never quite figured out the deal with my middle name / initial. Cultures are different, and you can’t expect everyone…

> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English, so it’s not very hard. In my experience it's extremely hard to get right. At one of my jobs pronunciation of Indian words (mostly food and names) was a fairly common topic of conversation and it was impossible for the non-Indians to get correct. To my American ear it usually sounded exactly the same (even if it wasn't me saying it) but they would always say it wasn't quite…

Sure, I'm just talking about getting an English equivalent pronunciation. Obviously, you can't sound identical to one language in another language, especially when one language distinguishes sounds that the other doesn't.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#194

Post by earthboundkid »

javier_e06 wrote: post #132
earthboundkid wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a little bit of a complicated issue. On the one hand, my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American. That’s a totally normal thing, and it’s weird to complain about it. In Japan, they were often confused about which of my names was personal and which was for my family, and they never quite figured out the deal with my middle name / initial. Cultures are different, and you can’t expect everyone…

I agree on the "death by thousand cuts that people with foreign names experience in the US" It reminds me of the meme that reads: "You speak English because is the only language you know. I speak English because is the only language you know. We are not the same". Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity?

My name is a totally bog standard American name and Starbucks or whoever cannot get it right if I just say it. I have internalized this now so I always say my name followed by spelling it (fortunately, it's very short). I think it's an important bit of context that even if your name is something like "Karen" or whatever, they will mishear it and misspell it as "Cathrine". It's not a unique microaggression imposed on people with names that are uncommon in the US.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#195

Post by earthboundkid »

anotheruser13 wrote: post #177
paulddraper wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hindi is spelled phonetically in English Bold of you to say it's possible to "spell phonetically in English"

The Japanese language enters and says, "Hold my beer."

I think the Japanese have a good system internally. They convert foreign sounds into sounds that work in their language. Of course, this bites them in the ass when they try to actually speak a foreign language, but as long as you're speaking Japanese with some foreign words mixed in, it's fine and the system works.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#196

Post by earthboundkid »

kibwen wrote: post #83
earthboundkid wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a little bit of a complicated issue. On the one hand, my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American. That’s a totally normal thing, and it’s weird to complain about it. In Japan, they were often confused about which of my names was personal and which was for my family, and they never quite figured out the deal with my middle name / initial. Cultures are different, and you can’t expect everyone…

> my great-grandfather gave up using a patronym to be an American I'd be interested to hear the story there. When it comes to surnames, AFAIK nearly every US state lets you put basically any arbitrary assembly of English characters as the last name for a child, with even fewer restrictions on the last names for adults.

My great grandfather emigrated as a young person and started using his father's patronym as his own last name instead of continuing to use his father's first name as his patronym. He could have kept the patronym tradition alive, but why? He was in America now, and once his kids were born, they mostly spoke English anyway.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#197

Post by cat_plus_plus »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #109
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #66

For whatever reason, my first name is almost universally mispronounced in America. So early on, I made a decision to let it go and in fact introduce myself by how most English speakers said it. No regrets whatsoever, any time spent sorting phonetics out is time wasted not getting to substance of the matter we want to discuss. I also suspect that if I made a stink about it, many people would avoid me because I have a…

My friend, in America, is named Alok. When he started school the teacher said “That’s not a name, in my class your name is Alex.” You know that not everyone is relating to you with good intentions, right? And that their convenience isn’t the most important thing in the world? How far does your magnanimity extend? Can people just say “hey you, shithead” and you think that shouldn’t affect the interaction?

Why isn't other people's convenience the most important thing in the world? Utilitarian: there are many of them, there is only one of me. Egalitarian: I don't want to me inconvenienced by accepting an alternative pronunciation of my name, so I insist on THEM being inconvenienced? Self-interest: I have some business with them, the less distractions we have getting to it the sooner/better it will get done.

I had plenty of experience with people intentionally calling me mean nicknames in my native language. There is zero overlap between this situation and someone who just wants to have a useful interaction.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#198

Post by lanstin »

smlavine wrote: post #77
lanstin wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also love to read, “cultural considerations in visiting Norman, Oklahoma” written for the South Asian audience. Or “how to manage your US born workers” for upper class Asians. “Getting along in the US suburbs for the shy Indian tech geek.” To the extent these things exist, they are not easily accessible to English only US born people. Actually, I have just found my next series of Chat GPT questions. That said…

Can I use "cultural considerations in visiting Norman, Oklahoma" in a play I'll probably never write?

Of course! I think it would be pretty funny.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#199

Post by aldonius »

mbg721 wrote: post #58
SeanLuke wrote: post #8

Westernized Chinese names seem to be missing. For example, in Hong Kong it's common to have both Chinese and Western first names. This leads to a complex rule: Using the Western name only: WESTERN-FIRST CHINESE-LAST Using the Chinese name only: CHINESE-LAST CHINESE-FIRST Using both: WESTERN-FIRST CHINESE-LAST CHINESE-FIRST (CHINESE-FIRST can be one or two characters). I think I got that right?

I see the dual-first-name thing a lot with consultants, but within the West I think it's typically Western-first, Chinese-first, Chinese-last, isn't it? Which is extra confusing.

That's similar what I see for Chinese-Australian people. They'll get both a Western and a Chinese given name, though legal order probably varies.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#200

Post by Kerb_ »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #108
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #66

For whatever reason, my first name is almost universally mispronounced in America. So early on, I made a decision to let it go and in fact introduce myself by how most English speakers said it. No regrets whatsoever, any time spent sorting phonetics out is time wasted not getting to substance of the matter we want to discuss. I also suspect that if I made a stink about it, many people would avoid me because I have a…

> your pronoun if you didn't make it obvious by your attire This is still a minefield, especially among teenagers and very young adults who latch on to any opportunity to assert their individuality. I have met more than one man who wears female clothing and cosmetics and adopts female mannerisms, yet still insists that he is non-binary or a “non-binary male” and so his pronouns will be “he” or “they”, and you might g…

If it helps you feel better, as a they/he, being referred to as "she" doesn't offend me so much as it might confuse people I present more masculine around. Sometimes it even feels like it validates the androgynous/feminine expression that I partake in. I can't speak for everyone though, I'm just me
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