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Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

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Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#51

Post by TSiege »

gustavus wrote: post #42
TSiege wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've been able to find, the importance of invading Belgium had more to do with capturing it's rail network for logistics, than recreating the battle of cannae

I'd argue against that interpretation, the importance of invading Belgium had more to do with avoiding the French line of fortresses and hoping that the Belgians would just roll over than capturing rail networks that they wouldn't be able to use without a protracted war, which they had no anticipation of as they expected to be marching into Paris 900 hours after mobilization was declared.

That also makes sense, and has nothing to do with the battle of cannae? Like that seems like a logical tactical decision. Offensive maneuvers are costly for the attacker against well fortified positions, so avoiding them by going around them makes sense as well as using the element of surprise. It also has nothing to do with the 2000 year old battle

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#53

Post by rexpop »

gustavus wrote: post #9
TSiege wrote: post #2

The argument laid out in this post and in the title around maps, specifically the battle of cannae, leading to world war one is pretty weak. I buy that German generals were obsessed with the battle, but I don't see any evidence here that this caused the war. Going to war is first and foremost a political act even if it is followed by a military response. There's no mention of the complex politics of europe at the tim…

So a couple of points of clarifications > specifically the battle of cannae, leading to world war one is pretty weak. I buy that German generals were obsessed with the battle, So not just the German generals specifically Schlieffen. The Schlieffen plan developed by it's namesake general was the governing document for the German plan of battle at the beginning of WW1. Schlieffen spent his entire life trying to figure…

> forces more than men were dictating things

> one general smashed his telephone so that it could not be rescinded

Seems like your "forces more than men" are actually just "more men."

Arguably, though, you're describing ideology or mythos, eg "Der tag!"[0]

0. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/anecdotes-from-the-arch...

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#54

Post by Apocryphon »

TSiege wrote: post #51
gustavus wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue against that interpretation, the importance of invading Belgium had more to do with avoiding the French line of fortresses and hoping that the Belgians would just roll over than capturing rail networks that they wouldn't be able to use without a protracted war, which they had no anticipation of as they expected to be marching into Paris 900 hours after mobilization was declared.

That also makes sense, and has nothing to do with the battle of cannae? Like that seems like a logical tactical decision. Offensive maneuvers are costly for the attacker against well fortified positions, so avoiding them by going around them makes sense as well as using the element of surprise. It also has nothing to do with the 2000 year old battle

"Convinced that Germany, surrounded by powerful enemies, would have to fight outnumbered and win, Schlieffen believed the key to victory could be discovered in an account of the Battle of Cannae, written by the German military historian Hans Delbrtick. Therefore, Schlieffen ordered the historical section of the General Staff to produce a set of Cannae Studies that would demonstrate that the principle of double envelopment practiced by Hannibal at Cannae was the master key to victory in battle."

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA622847

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#55

Post by cratermoon »

nonethewiser wrote: post #39
hammock wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incredibly relevant commentary today, in regards to the Ukraine conflict

And to the Chinese map including new territory.

And Russian and Japanese maps of the Kuril Islands.

Pakistani and Indian maps of Jammu and Kashmir and the Siachen. "thence north to the glaciers"

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#56

Post by 0xDEF »

It's remarkable how little of what Putin and Russian state median say internally to Russians is covered in Western media.

They are obsessed with old maps.

A few months ago Putin flaunted a map from the 1700s without Ukraine as proof as that Ukraine has always belonged to Russia and that "Russians" live in all regions of Ukraine (beyond Crimea and Donbas).

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#57

Post by kgeist »

>words for tea that sound like chai reflect a historical spread via overland routes, the argument goes, while words like tea are a legacy of maritime trade

>A 2018 viral article by the data journalist Nikhil Sonad in Quartz first put this idea on the world’s radar

It was common knowledge for decades. At least among linguists.

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#58

Post by bjourne »

soperj wrote: post #48
jprete wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert, but I think for World War I the military strategy questions - and in particular the misconceptions - were very relevant to the decision to go to war. My understanding is that the various combatant powers believed that the war would be quick and decisive in the way that prior wars had been; none expected or prepared for a four-year slog of trench warfare, defensive supremacy, or total depletion of w…

The american civil war was a full 50 years before WWI.

Yeah, but during the later stages of the American Civil war, machine guns mowed downs entire cavalry regiments. Many European officers didn't realize that made cavalry shocks useless and thus rapid advances would not be possible. Only infantry advances were possible and only under slower moving artillery cover. That made shock tactics mostly impossible until mechanized warfare became a thing in world war ii.

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#59

Post by Soupy »

Love it. The core point that I actually took away is driving home the fact that maps are not infallible and this goes against common sense for most people. I don't know if it truly led to WWI, but faulty maps have definitely caused endless problems throughout history. Look at Bermuda - the lack of this island on maps (or inprecise positioning) from the 14th-19th century has directly caused 350+ shipwrecks littering its shores. And countries didn't share updated positioning data/maps for centuries because it was a strategic advantage to horde it. Cool now, horrifying back then.

Even today, official US govn topo maps are constantly rectified and reprinted as new surveys and aerials are taken into account and we realize errors were made. You can actually explore the differences in the reprints via https://pastmaps.com/explore if you're curious about it (for full transparency, Pastmaps is my own project)

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