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I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

truthonthestreets.substack.com

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Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#51

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

Eumenes wrote: post #35
shuntress wrote: post #3

This skirts pretty close to saying that homelessness is an issue of "personal responsibility" while claiming to be apolitical. Homelessness is a complicated issue but the core of the solution is very simple: Provide housing. Whether that is a short term stay in a shelter or a lifelong stay in permanent housing is going to depend on the individual. But either way, you need a safe place to sleep and live before you can…

> This skirts pretty close to saying that homelessness is an issue of "personal responsibility" Can it not be personal responsibility? Does it _always_ have to be a systemic problem with our economic system? Believe it or not, there's always been segments of the population who can't cope with day to day responsibility and life. For every homeless person whose down on their luck or deeply involved in a drug addiction,…

> For every homeless person whose down on their luck or deeply involved in a drug addiction, there's 1000s who came from disenfranchised backgrounds who 'made it'

Given that there are ~528,000 homeless people in the United States that's an impossible statistic.

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#52

Post by avgcorrection »

Eumenes wrote: post #35
shuntress wrote: post #3

This skirts pretty close to saying that homelessness is an issue of "personal responsibility" while claiming to be apolitical. Homelessness is a complicated issue but the core of the solution is very simple: Provide housing. Whether that is a short term stay in a shelter or a lifelong stay in permanent housing is going to depend on the individual. But either way, you need a safe place to sleep and live before you can…

> This skirts pretty close to saying that homelessness is an issue of "personal responsibility" Can it not be personal responsibility? Does it _always_ have to be a systemic problem with our economic system? Believe it or not, there's always been segments of the population who can't cope with day to day responsibility and life. For every homeless person whose down on their luck or deeply involved in a drug addiction,…

Not necessarily with the economic system but any pattern in a large group can be explained as a group problem, yes. Then you propose the group-level fixes.

Imagine a personal development coach who said that “personal responsibility doesn't exist”. That's pretty absurd. Then imagine a sociologist that says that “group-level problems don't exist”. Equally absurd.

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#53

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

Ajay-p wrote: post #26
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #4

As I've said before, there is a counter-intuitive meta-problem with homelessness. Fixing homelessness doesn't require love, or honesty, or any other virtue. Like most problems, it requires money. But no matter how much money is allocated to fix the problem of homelessness, fixing it attracts more homeless. Their feet aren't nailed to the ground on the other side of the continent... if they hear of a magical place tha…

This argument has been used to describe unchecked or open immigration. Those in need will migrate to those places that provide support. A crisis in one location will push those in need to flood into a neighboring location seeking help, which can overwhelm and strip available resources for that area, exacerbating the problem all over again. With communication among the poor and homeless not terribly great, more will k…

My solutions aren't applicable to immigration, which has a far simpler solution. We hand out green cards to people at border INS offices. Half-hour interview, one time, they get on the bus immediately afterward. If they show up with the right paperwork, instant background check passes, etc.

Now these people can't be cheated out of wages or paid below minimum. They pay into taxes. Employers have to pay for health insurance. They suddenly become much less tempting to hire. They too, won't want gangbangers and criminals ruin things, but now they feel safe to contact the police. They'll now snitch on people sneaking in. Most of the problems that even the right complain about are caused by keeping them an underclass. If, is as claimed, they "steal jobs from Americans", then doing this would probably reverse the flow and we'd see emigration.

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#54

Post by shuntress »

davidw wrote: post #38
jppope wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide any data on California? It may just be the skeptic in me but using Utah, with its large Mormon population and climate, feels like an exception not a rule. I'm aware that New York City has done some good work, but that predates Housing First if I'm not mistaken.

California has a huge homelessness generating machine: the housing market. There's no way that some charities and a few government programs can get people out of homelessness faster than the rising prices can generate people without a place to live.

You know most people move somewhere cheaper when they can't afford to live somewhere, right?

This is not about people being priced out of certain markets.

This is about the people who are too deep in crisis to handle finding a cheaper place to live.

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#55

Post by shuntress »

Ajay-p wrote: post #19

I don't agree with this author at all. Housing First has proven to be very successful when implemented on the local and state level.[0] This author seems to be taking a strange economic view that just because it has worked doesn't it mean it will continue to work, or work on a national level. I hate to say it but he sounds very bitter and thinks this is just throwing good money after bad. IMO if it gets people off th…

"Housing First" is a little bit like Universal Basic Income. Small scale programs have good results with indications that it will work just as well or better at large scale.

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#56

Post by chmod600 »

Ajay-p wrote: post #19

I don't agree with this author at all. Housing First has proven to be very successful when implemented on the local and state level.[0] This author seems to be taking a strange economic view that just because it has worked doesn't it mean it will continue to work, or work on a national level. I hate to say it but he sounds very bitter and thinks this is just throwing good money after bad. IMO if it gets people off th…

Not sure if it's true or not but the author is suggesting that the housing is not a safe environment and that they don't have good access (or at least utilization) of services.

I read it more as an argument that it's an expensive way to keep the homelessness out of sight.

(Not agreeing or disagreeing, just my interpretation of the author's general point.)

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#57

Post by shuntress »

_mxdo wrote: post #18

All of the land is 100% owned, even the land that nobody ever uses. Nobody can use it - zoned off. There are no spots left to find and build a house somewhere. You're also not allowed to set up in a city - that's homelessness. You're not even allowed to plant seeds of food, that's illegal. The only way you are allowed to have a roof over your head or have food is when you pay someone for it, and it's all 100% already…

I'm having a hard time following this.

It is definitely not illegal to plant seeds.

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#58

Post by davidw »

shuntress wrote: post #54
davidw wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California has a huge homelessness generating machine: the housing market. There's no way that some charities and a few government programs can get people out of homelessness faster than the rising prices can generate people without a place to live.

You know most people move somewhere cheaper when they can't afford to live somewhere, right? This is not about people being priced out of certain markets. This is about the people who are too deep in crisis to handle finding a cheaper place to live.

You're correct that many people do move - that's why California lost a congressional seat. But there are plenty that get 'caught out' - they don't have the cash to move somewhere far away with no friends or family or a job lined up.

The statistics are pretty clear that, at a high level, it is about housing prices. That's why California has more homelessness than Detroit despite the latter being mired in poverty. That's why there's more homelessness in Oregon than West Virginia, even if the latter has a raging opioid problem.

https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/everything-you-think-you-know-...

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#59

Post by shuntress »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #4

As I've said before, there is a counter-intuitive meta-problem with homelessness. Fixing homelessness doesn't require love, or honesty, or any other virtue. Like most problems, it requires money. But no matter how much money is allocated to fix the problem of homelessness, fixing it attracts more homeless. Their feet aren't nailed to the ground on the other side of the continent... if they hear of a magical place tha…

"Caravan of 'Undesirables'" scare tactic.

Get real.

Re: I call it the Homeless Industrial Complex

#60

Post by chmod600 »

A few tangential questions:

Assuming services are available and accessible on a voluntary basis, what is the success rate for overcoming major substance abuse or mental health issues?

How does that success rate change with various levels of coercion?

Assuming the success rate is fairly low, that still leaves a lot of people with substance abuse or mental health problems. What is the right thing to do for them? Independent housing is one option but wouldn't some kind of institution make more sense?

If someone's main problem is homelessness and some minor criminal behavior, I can imagine that free housing could turn their situation around quickly. But only if it's a safe environment around similarly-situated people.

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