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Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

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Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#31
post #22

It's curious how people are responding to the title, rather than the post, which touches on the title but is mostly about another thing: >> There’s something beguiling about the thought that a simple arrangement of lines might explain the world — like seeing human history as an enormous game of Civilization 6. But of course, that’s also the problem with using maps as a way of understanding history. If you’re not care…

[deleted]

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#32
post #26
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically true of most wars. The war in Iraq was supposed to be quick and decisive. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rumsfeld-it-would-be-a-short-wa...

The war in Iraq was quick and decisive. The occupation afterwards was a mess in every way possible, but the organized war between states went exactly as planned.

The Iraq War ended in 2011. The initial invasion that toppled Sadam was quick

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#33
post #9
post #2

The argument laid out in this post and in the title around maps, specifically the battle of cannae, leading to world war one is pretty weak. I buy that German generals were obsessed with the battle, but I don't see any evidence here that this caused the war. Going to war is first and foremost a political act even if it is followed by a military response. There's no mention of the complex politics of europe at the tim…

So a couple of points of clarifications > specifically the battle of cannae, leading to world war one is pretty weak. I buy that German generals were obsessed with the battle, So not just the German generals specifically Schlieffen. The Schlieffen plan developed by it's namesake general was the governing document for the German plan of battle at the beginning of WW1. Schlieffen spent his entire life trying to figure…

From what I've been able to find, the importance of invading Belgium had more to do with capturing it's rail network for logistics, than recreating the battle of cannae

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#34
post #17

> Keeping that in mind, return to the map above and take note of Portugal and Brazil. I took note: Brazil is absent from the map, which doesn't show the Americas.

Look again, it isn’t to scale, but the americas are there!

Oh my, so it is! The Americas is that little island off Japan.

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#35
Battle of annihilation became the fetish of the German army well before WWI. As the Germans already did it successfully in 1870 by encircling two French armies leading to what was - at the time - somewhat of a surprise victory. Why would one credit this obsession to a 2000 year old tactical victory (Cannae) and not the 40 year old strategic victories of Metz and Sedan?

Schlieffen plan had the same aim but shifted northward to deal with the fact that after the annexations of 1871 any offensive through the south (now guarded by the Vosges) was unlikely to be successful.

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#36
post #6
post #2

The argument laid out in this post and in the title around maps, specifically the battle of cannae, leading to world war one is pretty weak. I buy that German generals were obsessed with the battle, but I don't see any evidence here that this caused the war. Going to war is first and foremost a political act even if it is followed by a military response. There's no mention of the complex politics of europe at the tim…

I'm not an expert, but I think for World War I the military strategy questions - and in particular the misconceptions - were very relevant to the decision to go to war. My understanding is that the various combatant powers believed that the war would be quick and decisive in the way that prior wars had been; none expected or prepared for a four-year slog of trench warfare, defensive supremacy, or total depletion of w…

"none expected or prepared for a four-year slog of trench warfare"

Yet another parallel with what's happening in Ukraine right now. Both Russia (and some in NATO) I think expected this to end in days with an ugly military defeat, capture of the capital, and then years of guerilla and political battles.

We appear to be at a similar juncture as WWI in geopolitics and military organization/technology, where the relative capabilities of various forces are not well understood.

(And similar to WWI this seems to be primarily about imperial economics, within which smaller nations get caught up as battle sites and pawns and the issue of the self-determination of smaller ethnic nation states becomes one of the defining issues. At least that's how Lenin and others analyzed WWI, and it's notable that Putin went out of his way to namecheck and attack Lenin in particular at the start of the conflict...)

Coffee brainfarts, sorry. :-)

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#37
post #22

It's curious how people are responding to the title, rather than the post, which touches on the title but is mostly about another thing: >> There’s something beguiling about the thought that a simple arrangement of lines might explain the world — like seeing human history as an enormous game of Civilization 6. But of course, that’s also the problem with using maps as a way of understanding history. If you’re not care…

Incredibly relevant commentary today, in regards to the Ukraine conflict

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#38
post #26
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically true of most wars. The war in Iraq was supposed to be quick and decisive. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rumsfeld-it-would-be-a-short-wa...

The war in Iraq was quick and decisive. The occupation afterwards was a mess in every way possible, but the organized war between states went exactly as planned.

Absolutely, and so different from Ukraine, where I think pundits expected an Iraq-like situation. Initial rapid capture followed by years of instability. American advisors at the beginning looked like they were interested in mainly supplying Ukraine with guerilla warfare tools, etc. expecting that kind of situation.

... but reality went another way and now the west is sending in cruise missiles tanks and cluster artillery.

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#39
post #37
post #22

It's curious how people are responding to the title, rather than the post, which touches on the title but is mostly about another thing: >> There’s something beguiling about the thought that a simple arrangement of lines might explain the world — like seeing human history as an enormous game of Civilization 6. But of course, that’s also the problem with using maps as a way of understanding history. If you’re not care…

Incredibly relevant commentary today, in regards to the Ukraine conflict

And to the Chinese map including new territory.

Re: Historical maps probably helped cause World War I

#40
post #22

It's curious how people are responding to the title, rather than the post, which touches on the title but is mostly about another thing: >> There’s something beguiling about the thought that a simple arrangement of lines might explain the world — like seeing human history as an enormous game of Civilization 6. But of course, that’s also the problem with using maps as a way of understanding history. If you’re not care…

I'm reminded of how all models are wrong...
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