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F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

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Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#631

Post by _kbh_ »

hajile wrote: post #621
LegitShady wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The A-10 would be shot out of the sky at impressive rates with today's proliferation of MANPADs, the same way the ukrainians are shooting down russion KA-52s in ukraine whenever they get too close to the line of contact. The F-35 could require 100x more maintenance than the A-10 but it will accomplish the mission and come home afterwards. The A-10 is useful for shooting someone who can't shoot missiles back at your p…

Look at actual kills of SU-25 and KA-52 vs the damage they have done. I've seen a single KA-52 mission take down around a half-dozen vehicles and completely halt an advance. That helicopter more than paid for itself in just that one interaction. There have been no doubt thousands to tens of thousands of missions flown over the past year and a half by Russia, but only around 28 SU-25 losses and 36 KA-52 losses[0]. At…

> Even looking at total aircraft losses per side per month, the worst case is Ukraine with 307 losses over 19 months or 16.2 per month.

Unless this includes UAV's (which would be a bit strange) I don't see how this is even possible Ukraines airforce doesn't even have 300 combat aircraft.

Looking at most sources I cannot find where this number could have come from.

Going per oryx's numbers.

Ukraine (https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-docum...).

- 71 Aircraft

- 35 Helicopters

- 25 UAV's

- 166 Recon UAV's.

297 total.

But.

Russia (https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-docum...)

- 90 Aircraft

- 105 Helicopters

- 14 UAV's

- 286 Recon UAV's.

495 total.

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#632

Post by giarc »

dredmorbius wrote: post #630

A debris field has been found: The debris field is approximately two hours northeast of Joint Base Charleston. JB Charleston, which led the search, “is transferring incident command to the USMC this evening, as they begin the recovery process,” the Marine Corps said in a news release. Members of the community were cautioned to avoid the area so the recovery team can secure the debris field and begin the recovery proc…

Two hours by car, or two hours by F-35 jet? Quite a big difference.

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#633

Post by mpreda »

histriosum wrote: post #518
orange_fritter wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In flight school lore, during a training exercise, a plane righted itself from "uncontrollable flat spin" after ejection. Basically, pilot input can fight against the natural stability of the plane's design. Also: > During a training mission from Malmstrom Air Force Base, on Feb. 2, 1970, his F-106 entered an uncontrollable flat spin forcing him to eject. Unexpectedly, the aircraft recovered on its own and made a gen…

Worth noting that spin recovery is highly CG (center of gravity) dependent. Ejecting from an aircraft would significantly alter the CG. It's far more likely that the CG change broke the spin than the pilot was doing something unhelpful. Additionally there would be a nose down moment from the seat firing (newtons third law) and that may well have broken the stall.

Visually the cockpit of a fighter plane is located forward, thus very likely ahead of the plane's CG. Ejecting the pilot would thus move the CG towards the back of the plane, which is a less stable configuration making it more difficult to recover from a stall.

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#634

Post by JohnBooty »

ZeroCooly wrote: post #439
cameldrv wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you looked at the MiG-23 that crashed last month in Michigan?

I think it's worth noting that that the MiG-23 that crashed in Michigan was a privately owned aircraft, flown not by an active service member. I highly doubt the military allows their pilots to eject without absolute certainty that the multimillion/billion dollar aircraft is totally lost. Additionally, I highly doubt there are many privately owned military jets equipped with ejection seats that are allowed to fly, es…

Every military aviation mishap is investigated, as you'd expect. The mishaps may of course not be the pilot's fault.

This guy is a thoughtful YouTuber, former F-14 RIO (back seat guy), who has covered it a few times.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ward+carroll+ej...

My outside, civilian impression from lots of aviator interviews is that the military values its expensive hardware very highly and does not like it if you make expensive mistakes. But my impression is also that it does value the life of its aviators highly as well. They do not want you to die in general and they do not want you do die in order to save a plane.

The decision to eject is often a very very split-second decision. When things go wrong in the air they go wrong in a hurry, especially during takeoff/landing when there is very very little distance between you and the ground.

Just like any job, a mishap that is your fault might be a negative for your aviation career. But one that is the result of equipment failure or something else outside of your control isn't going to be a black mark. My impression is that the military generally tries to get these things right, because it is generally in the military's best interest to perform at a high level and because big expensive mishaps (particularly aviation-related ones) generate a lot of bad press.

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#635

Post by chankstein38 »

ortusdux wrote: post #476
chankstein38 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my assumption as well but I'd have assumed that'd be the case with basically anything except on-site search parties (though I'd hope they could do that as well haha). I'm with you though!

From the article - "The jet’s transponder, which usually helps locate the aircraft, was not working “for some reason that we haven’t yet determined,” said Jeremy Huggins, a spokesman at Joint Base Charleston. “So that’s why we put out the public request for help.”

Ah shoot, I missed that. Thank you!

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#636

Post by justin66 »

Retric wrote: post #624
justin66 wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the plane is capable of control, the pilot will move it on a trajectory away from populated areas if possible. Protecting innocent people on the ground in the case of an emergency was always top of mind, you can see this in the crash reporting for multiple real world incidents One of the things I remember from Chuck Yeager's autobiography (his first one - I think he eventually had several) is that he called bull…

There’s many voice recordings, instrument logs, and even ATC conversations of people aiming doomed aircraft away from populated areas. Military pilots may have different priorities as they can eject, but many civilian pilots have spent their final moments trying to minimize casualties. Exceptions defiantly exist, but it’s a very common reaction.

I do expect having an ejection seat might alter behavior, as well as the encouragement of an ATC. And Yeager was a test pilot who was part of a community of test pilots...

In my memory, my impression of Yeager's brief anecdote was that "the pilot heroically sacrificed himself to save the lives of innocents on the ground" was a common enough bullshit news story that he wanted to debunk it. A pilot would be focused on saving himself and his aircraft to the fullest extent possible.

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#637

Post by interestica »

dredmorbius wrote: post #630

A debris field has been found: The debris field is approximately two hours northeast of Joint Base Charleston. JB Charleston, which led the search, “is transferring incident command to the USMC this evening, as they begin the recovery process,” the Marine Corps said in a news release. Members of the community were cautioned to avoid the area so the recovery team can secure the debris field and begin the recovery proc…

The repeated referral to "debris field" is interesting. As if it's saying "nothing to see here."

Or maybe it's really just a field of debris.

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#638

Post by alephnerd »

pwython wrote: post #620
rootusrootus wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was an early armchair skeptic, and I've always had a not-so-secret love of the F-16. But after watching an F-35 demo at a recent airshow, I'm a convert. Anyone who says this plane can't out-dogfight an F-16 is delusional.

Was it worth $1,700,000,000,000 though ($1.7 trillion)? I'm all for aviation innovation, but the US defense budget is just wild.

It's had downstream benefits in the hardware, IoT, cybersecurity, devops, missle research, and aerospace segments just off the top of my head. I don't want to dox myself but a lot of GovCloud can be attributed to the F35 development cycle.

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#639

Post by dolmen »

tehf0x wrote: post #265

So a similar thing happened near some friends' in France. A military jet crashed into the forest near their house, but the air force couldn't figure out where it had gone. Eventually a farmer noticed that a new pond had appeared on his land. The jet made enough of a crater when crashing that drained the nearby swamp and created a new pond deep enough to conceal the full fuselage, thus completely hiding the airplane.…

More details on the Mirage 2000 crash: https://www.lamontagne.fr/saint-oradoux-pres-crocq-23260/act...

Re: F-35 can’t be found after pilot ejected

#640

Post by Retric »

justin66 wrote: post #636
Retric wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s many voice recordings, instrument logs, and even ATC conversations of people aiming doomed aircraft away from populated areas. Military pilots may have different priorities as they can eject, but many civilian pilots have spent their final moments trying to minimize casualties. Exceptions defiantly exist, but it’s a very common reaction.

I do expect having an ejection seat might alter behavior, as well as the encouragement of an ATC. And Yeager was a test pilot who was part of a community of test pilots... In my memory, my impression of Yeager's brief anecdote was that "the pilot heroically sacrificed himself to save the lives of innocents on the ground" was a common enough bullshit news story that he wanted to debunk it. A pilot would be focused on…

Test pilots are also generally avoiding populated areas where civilian airports are often very close or even inside them. The trope of military jets crashing into a desert, ocean, or farmers field represents the most likely outcomes.
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