Sigh, Eurasmus, Euratom, mutual visas for people in the arts wanting to work in Europe etc. etc. need not even be associated with being in the EU but we needlessly harmed ourselves and left them all. The UK electorate has been told a fiction about sovereignty for decades, I’m not sure how to stop the lies and conspiracy theories that have permeated a lot of society now. We are set to become a very poor and unhappy country if we keep being unable to discuss reality and focus on how people feel.
U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
111–120 of 246 posts
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#112The Brexiteers are convinced this shows it’s possible to cherrypick the parts you wanted from the EU. The Remainers are convinced that the interval when Britain was out of Horizon shows the dangers of Brexit.
Neither is really relevant, though. At best this agreement brings the UK back to previous status quo in one area. Where are the Brexit benefits that were supposed to balance out the other side of the equation and eventually show a net positive? Even immigration isn’t actually down compared to EU membership days. All that’s left seems to be those vague ramblings of sovereignty.
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#113This is "great news" for researchers and UK universities in particular but this is also "terrible news" because it's yet another instance of special treatment that weakens the overall system. What I mean by that it's the notion of "we can be out while still be kinda in". No system can survive for long if this is widespread. I get most of the UK scientific community was against Brexit, but the truth is the majority vo…
Or looked at another way, it just weakness the parts of the system where there are disagreements.
The most frustrating thing about the EU is that there are both great and awful things about it. Some things almost all EU nations agree on, such as having strong trading relationships and joint research programs, but often this comes bundled with stuff there is far more disagreement on the Schengen Area and the Euro.
I think the EU would be stronger if was purely an opt-in / opt-out model. Forcing such a diverse group of nations to all adopt a single system is neither in the interest the people living in EU or in the interest of the long-term viability of the EU.
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
The EU is a geopolitical entity with geopolitical aims. that has always been the case. You don't disagree with my point re. 'club rules'...
No disagreement on rules, but I don't see that as particular exclusionary in the sense that whenever people cooperate they do that under some set of rules anyway. EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all.
> EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all.
The EU has quite some capacity to project power worldwide. Especially when it comes to trade and regulation. Surely not like the US or China, since it doesn't have it's own military. But much more than any of it's member states alone or other mid-sized countries like the UK.
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, and maybe after that we can create a new supranational government that has fundamental authority over our own government, is free to write laws for us, can overrule our courts, removes all sovereignty over immigration, has a parliament with many degrees of democratic separation from the electorate, has an unelected commission that makes all the laws, has ever-expanding centralisation of power written into its co…
> parliament with many degrees of democratic separation from the electorate The country with the entirely unelected unremovable upper house has no business complaining about this.
The house of lords had major reform at the start of Labour's last stint in government to remove hereditary peers. It's not impossible to go further, in fact I'd put it at about the same likelihood as reforming the EU structure in the medium to long term.
Besides, short of violent revolution there's nothing the UK population can immediately do about the HoL. The Brexit vote was something that the people could directly do to at least de-abstract power and bring it closer to home. This was one of the most-advertised perks of the EU by the remain campaign: It's not the same as a nation superstate because you're able to voluntarily leave. Brexit was just the UK population exercising that right.
The other point is that the Lords really doesn't have that much power when all's said and done. Yes, they can quibble and send bills back for review a few times, but they're nothing like the US senate for example, the commons have the final say over everyone else. Compare to the EU commission, who have much more power, and actually make the laws.
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#116Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe. This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) On the other hand, since brexit happened most international research teams in UK have lost key members to other countries so maybe someone finally took notice.
Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…
>no, collaboration makes sense regardless
The EU is one big collaborative project. I'm pro EU for this very reason, so surely the leavers argument has to be 'some, but not too much collaboration makes sense'.
Of course that assumes a coherent argument from brexiteers...
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe. This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) On the other hand, since brexit happened most international research teams in UK have lost key members to other countries so maybe someone finally took notice.
>This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) When it goes the way someone wants they call that "democracy" ;)
Democracy isn't a magical word that automatically makes every decision made democratically good, nor does it stop being democracy if people are lied to and tricked into voting against their own interests.
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, they correctly predicted that the research funding was one of the things the government would kibosh with its "not paying the EU a penny" dick-waving, which is what happened. The fact we can later renegotiate access to a particular programme on the same basis as NZ doesn't mean we're getting access to other EU perks like free healthcare on holiday or the right to live in Spain, or that London hasn't fallen behind…
> No, they correctly predicted that the research funding was one of the things the government would kibosh with its "not paying the EU a penny" dick-waving, which is what happened. this couldn't be more inaccurate Boris Johnson negotiated as part of the brexit treaty to pay in, in the normal proportion the EU even says as much on its FAQ page
After four years of talking about how we didn't need to do a deal because they'd miss our money more than we'd miss them, we got the possibility of associate membership of Horizon included provisionally with the deal we did at the last minute. This didn't exactly help orgs who'd already lost collaboration opportunities because of the uncertainty involved in Mr No Deal being in charge. Their participation for the next year was already kiboshed.
Then we had more dick-waving about not adhering to what we'd signed over NI, so membership wasn't ratified whilst the Science Minister talked about the lost funding being "the freedom to go global", and consortia felt their decision not to invite UK participants over the risks associated with the UK govt was vindicated
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe. This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) On the other hand, since brexit happened most international research teams in UK have lost key members to other countries so maybe someone finally took notice.
Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…
Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation?
Taking this Horizon story as an example, the fact that we've rejoined shows that EU membership isn't necessary for it, but it still has "years out of the deal" as a negative for Brexit and I don't think any improvement to count as a positive?
Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
No disagreement on rules, but I don't see that as particular exclusionary in the sense that whenever people cooperate they do that under some set of rules anyway. EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all.
> EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all. The EU has quite some capacity to project power worldwide. Especially when it comes to trade and regulation. Surely not like the US or China, since it doesn't have it's own military. But much more than any of it's member states alone or other mid-sized countries like the UK.
Not that I can imagine it happening, but in a hypothetical where neither side had nukes how would a war between China and EU nations play out? Your comment seems to suggest that the combined militaries of EU states isn't a match, which isn't what I would have assumed but it's not an area I know anything about.