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To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

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Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#161
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't build the engines for the Saturn five rocket anymore though the engineering documents still exist. You need the documentation and skilled craftsman.

If that's true ... then how were the engines ever built in the first place? You know, back when they had neither the plans nor people that had built such large engines before?

About 20 iterative engine designs from the Rocketdyne A-1 to the F-1, building experience and skills along the way.

It's probably a myth anyway, Rocketdyne's expertise continues with the RS-68 and there are probably still employees that worked on the RS-56 that was derived from the H-1, which was essentially a smaller F-1

edit: Apparently, an upgraded F-1B is part of the SLS Block 2 spec anyway, so yes, they can still make them.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#162
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia is still structured as an empire, though the fraction of ethnic Russians is relatively high, historically speaking. That, together with its large size, requires a large section of the economy be slaved to the security sector. Frankly, Russia as a Chinese suzerainty might be one of the more productive alignments for the global economy, even if it isn’t great for America.

For those interested in a more analytical approach, this article/youTube video explains how the geographical vulnerability of Russia's western borders has led to both its high degree of overall militarization as well as its extreme sensitivity over Ukraine in particular: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/12/05/caspian_r... ! Although it is usually ignored, geography is fundamental to understanding why nati…

The paradox of Russian borders is that at the current border, and also beyond it, are flat plains. So as soon as they create a "buffer zone" (let's not dwell on what that means for the people in said "buffer zone"), they create a new border... on the same flat indefensible plain. So the next policy goal is to extend the border, etc.

Say Russia achieves is "geographic necessity" of conquering Ukraine (which I very much wish doesn't happen). What's beyond there? Romania is a mix of plains and mountains - so what, Russia gets to invade there? Poland is mostly flat and with few major obstacles (Vistula running south-north is probably the only major one - and a very topical one...). So then what - extend the "buffer zone" into Germany? And... Finland? And I mean, you can't trust these warmongering Swedes and Norwegian - remember the Vikings? Better pacify these guys too before it's too late.

It's not a logic anyone outside of Russia wants to entertain.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#163
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't even document computer code accurately. And neither can I. Gordon Ramsey can't document how to cook a steak and how to tell thats its done. 3 different cooks will read his instructions and will end up with 3 different steaks. The idea that a lifetime of steelworking experience can be foind in books, especially by people who aren't known for love of books, is pure folly. Skills are living. They live in flesh…

I call BS. Code and any process can be documented just fine. > 3 different cooks will read his instructions and will end up with 3 different steaks Either his instructions are shit, or the cooks are donkeys. Sear steak at high heat, 1 minute, rotate steak 45 degrees, flip steak to sear back side for 1 minute, rotate steak 45 degrees. Move steak to indirect heat until internal temp probed at center of steak reaches 14…

You can make it documented. Can other people understand completely same as you? It's a different story

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#164
post #51

Does USA even have civilian dry docks to build ships? I thought everything was outsourced to Korea. I know it can build military vessels, but at horribly slow pace. Australia will get their nuclear submarines some time in 2040. I can not imagine building civilian nuclear ice breakers in US.

And building ships isn't even that hard... Like a really nice passenger ships takes what 2 or 3 years?

Major difference between building a cruise ship and a polar ice breaker.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#165
post #164
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And building ships isn't even that hard... Like a really nice passenger ships takes what 2 or 3 years?

Major difference between building a cruise ship and a polar ice breaker.

Yes, the later is much smaller and simpler...

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#166
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't even document computer code accurately. And neither can I. Gordon Ramsey can't document how to cook a steak and how to tell thats its done. 3 different cooks will read his instructions and will end up with 3 different steaks. The idea that a lifetime of steelworking experience can be foind in books, especially by people who aren't known for love of books, is pure folly. Skills are living. They live in flesh…

I call BS. Code and any process can be documented just fine. > 3 different cooks will read his instructions and will end up with 3 different steaks Either his instructions are shit, or the cooks are donkeys. Sear steak at high heat, 1 minute, rotate steak 45 degrees, flip steak to sear back side for 1 minute, rotate steak 45 degrees. Move steak to indirect heat until internal temp probed at center of steak reaches 14…

> Code and any process can be documented just fine.

Can be? perhaps. Is documented? definitely not.

90% of code is not documented, whether it is a trojan or firmware for a soda dispenser. If I find you a random piece of code that was not maintained for the last 5 years, in a random language, what is the chance that you can get it to work? 30%?

> It isn’t easy, but it can be done

So most of the time it isn't done.

Its software engineer's job to document code, it is not the job of a machinist to document minitua of his job. In fact some proffeshions made historically a point of keeping their craft secret and passing knowledge on to an apprentice.

> Code and any process can be documented just fine.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#167
post #165
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major difference between building a cruise ship and a polar ice breaker.

Yes, the later is much smaller and simpler...

I guess simpler the same way a tractor is simpler than a mini van...

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#168
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> OK, the who would you suggest should be the world’s police? > The post-WWII world order is predicated on the agreement that the age of imperialism is over and that invasion by force to annex another country is illegitimate. If that was true, it would be inconsistent with any one nation or narrow relatively fixed set of nations being the world’s police, as that would indicate that the age of imperialism was not over…

>>aspirations which people at the end of WWII had for the postwar international order were never realized. Yes, the UN failed to live up to that aspiration. Of course some kind of Shangra-La where there is no conflict and no authoritarians trying to take over would be fantastic. The problem is that it is just that - a fantasy. We must deal with the reality of the world. This is in no small part to the failure of incl…

> We can seen where the policing has broken down, because the states trying to maintain democracy and the Post-WWII world order have tried appeasement or failed to police.

We’ve also seen where it succeeded in its real goals, which are often not democracy or any rules based order, but the parochial security and economic interests of the powers doing the “policing".

We've also seen that the power that holds itself up as the primary architect and enforcer of a “rules-based international order” particularly refuses (often with histrionic gestures, like the act nicknamed the Hague Invasion Act) to subject itself to the the rules and institutions of that order.

> It is endless war crimes, cities reduced to rubble,

Yes, we've seen that caused by the active engagement, not merely the restraint, of the “policing” powers.

> So, if you are going to throw accusations that the US, UK, FR, NATO, attempting to maintain whatever peaceful world order is some kind of problem or is illegitimate,

What I said was the suggestion that powrful countries policing the behavior of others is not imperialism but something categorically different is self-delusion.

Its others making the implicit claim that imperialism is illegitimate and what is legitimate is some other order that exists only in fantasy.

(I can certainly conceive if something that would be legitimate in a way that the imperialist order is not, but as I see no obvious pass yo achieving it, its not worth advocating.) But in the meantime, without a route out, the best way to mitigate the worst potential harms of the imperialist order starts with recognizing the nature of that order for what it is, and understanding where it is prone, by nature, to oroduce bad outcomes.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First thing that comes to mind is friends father was hitting retirement age after working at a petrochemical/plastics facility for ~20 years, was in charge of maintenance of some section. I think he told me the owner had to call him twice to help diagnose problems that were causing product outages. These things don't get built on a whim - there's risks, regulations, documentation, procedures, experts, etc. At the end…

>At the end of the day you have people doing the work for decades, with an intuition about how things work. That's exactly my point. This intuition is undocumented however it becomes superseded by new tech. Nobody can (successfully) run a plastics plant with decades of old hardware knowledge and expect to be in business another 20 years. "In 1991, Aldo retired and Ed took over day-to-day management of the company. Fi…

> Nobody can (successfully) run a plastics plant with decades of old hardware knowledge and expect to be in business another 20 years.

You would be surprised - I've seen production lines 30+ years old running profitably.

Note this was not plastics moulding - this was producing raw plastics/petrochemical facility.

Re: To build ships that break ice, U.S. must relearn to cut steel

#170
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually a surprising that Russia is not the manufacturing capital of the world. They have super-cheap energy, Soviet-era high-quality STEM education, and 50 million cheap workers from Caucasus, Siberia, Far East Russia, and the Central Asian countries.

They don't really have the population for it. In fact, they've got an acute skilled labor shortage (and had one even before the war).

Key to understanding this is understanding the massive toll that was inflicted on Russia during WWII.
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