U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme • Hacker News Board

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#81

Post by PedroBatista » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:49 AM UTC

physicsguy wrote: post #71

PedroBatista wrote: post #69

This is "great news" for researchers and UK universities in particular but this is also "terrible news" because it's yet another instance of special treatment that weakens the overall system. What I mean by that it's the notion of "we can be out while still be kinda in". No system can survive for long if this is widespread. I get most of the UK scientific community was against Brexit, but the truth is the majority vo…

Eh? The UK has 'rejoined' as an associate member, in the same way that a number of other countries are associate members.

Yes, but the deal is not really as a clean-slate external member just joined. Of course there are many pending issues from the past, as it would be expected, many long term investment and commitment were made and then one could colorfully say "the UK took the money and run" ( I know it's much more complicated than that ), and this deal kinda addresses that.

I'm not against this particular deal, in fact I'm moderately in favor. However IMO these kinds of 100 separate deals so the UK can get the "goods" while still being out are not good in the long run. ( the UK always had kind of a special deal since the 60s, but there is so much bad blood and misinformation it's pointless to acknowledge that )

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#82

Post by yieldcrv » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:50 AM UTC

kramerger wrote: post #24

phh wrote: post #14

FWIW, I don't have numbers, but Horizon Europe is both a research funding scheme and an industry innovation funding scheme. https://research-and-innovation.ec.europa.eu/funding/funding... says "This is 70% of the budget earmarked for SMEs." It has both direct research grants (ERC grants), and funds for big consortium projects, where most of the money goes to big companies, with some money also going to SMEs and resea…

Maybe. This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) On the other hand, since brexit happened most international research teams in UK have lost key members to other countries so maybe someone finally took notice.

> listening to whoever spoke louder

The original 51% attack

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#83

Post by RandomLensman » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:50 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #53

RandomLensman wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like an club, things for members are different than for non-members. Having a common and agree set of rules makes it easier for the members and more difficult for non-members. I would take issue with the notion of the EU having any geopolitical capabilities, though.

The EU is a geopolitical entity with geopolitical aims. that has always been the case. You don't disagree with my point re. 'club rules'...

No disagreement on rules, but I don't see that as particular exclusionary in the sense that whenever people cooperate they do that under some set of rules anyway.

EU might have geopolitical aims, but not much capability, so I see Horizon as not very strong in that area, if at all.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#84

Post by FiniteField » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:51 AM UTC

kramerger wrote: post #24

phh wrote: post #14

FWIW, I don't have numbers, but Horizon Europe is both a research funding scheme and an industry innovation funding scheme. https://research-and-innovation.ec.europa.eu/funding/funding... says "This is 70% of the budget earmarked for SMEs." It has both direct research grants (ERC grants), and funds for big consortium projects, where most of the money goes to big companies, with some money also going to SMEs and resea…

Maybe. This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) On the other hand, since brexit happened most international research teams in UK have lost key members to other countries so maybe someone finally took notice.

>This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :)

When it goes the way someone wants they call that "democracy" ;)

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#85

Post by jarvist » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:53 AM UTC

isaacfrond wrote: post #21

phh wrote: post #14

FWIW, I don't have numbers, but Horizon Europe is both a research funding scheme and an industry innovation funding scheme. https://research-and-innovation.ec.europa.eu/funding/funding... says "This is 70% of the budget earmarked for SMEs." It has both direct research grants (ERC grants), and funds for big consortium projects, where most of the money goes to big companies, with some money also going to SMEs and resea…

It's exactly what I'm wondering. The deal seems to stipulate that on average you'd spend about as much as you receive. If so, why not spend the same amount of money on your own scientist? That way you have full control. I don't get what the UK gets out of it. For the EU I can understand, a larger budget means more science done, means more results. Who cares if some of it happens in the UK, since we are getting paid f…

Why would you want control? That means more bureaucracy you need to do yourself.

In the UK (and I believe everywhere with a well functioning research culture), the 'Haldane principle' means that research funding is decided by researchers (not politicians / the civil service). https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdi...

Funding UK science via the ERC, means you are making use of the network effects for peer review & processes. So the individual funding applications are being reviewed to a higher standard, and better decisions are made about what science to fund.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#86

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:54 AM UTC

PedroBatista wrote: post #69

This is "great news" for researchers and UK universities in particular but this is also "terrible news" because it's yet another instance of special treatment that weakens the overall system. What I mean by that it's the notion of "we can be out while still be kinda in". No system can survive for long if this is widespread. I get most of the UK scientific community was against Brexit, but the truth is the majority vo…

I suspect the only way we'll get back in is by very laboriously arguing for each piece separately, to keep it "below the radar" of newspaper attacks. Next is probably EFTA, like Norway. We could even have a special carveout for fish like Norway.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#87

Post by hashtag-til » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:54 AM UTC

cossray wrote: post #60

hashtag-til wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a "union" of European countries, you mean? Any suggestions of how we could name it? Let's try to come up with a simple name and a 2 letters acronym so that it is simple for people to refer to it? /s

This sounds great. You mean something like the African Union and its 2 letter acronym, AU?

Sounds great. +2 from me.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#88

Post by mytailorisrich » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:55 AM UTC

thorin wrote: post #77

arrowsmith wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the US News "Best Global Universities" report [0], which ranks universities for their "academic research performance and their global and regional reputations", the UK has 4 universities (Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, Imperial) in the global top 20. The rest of Europe has zero. Alternatively, the UK has 6 universities in the global top 40, while the rest of Europe has two (one in the EU, one in Switzerland.) T…

Correct! Oxford was founded in the 11th century, with Cambridge lagging behind and not getting started until around 1200.

Cambridge University was actually founded by scholars who had left Oxford University because they apparently had a fight with local townsmen.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#89

Post by rwmj » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:57 AM UTC

blibble wrote: post #67

bowsamic wrote: post #23

I'm not surprised. This was one of the aspects of Brexit that seemed completely untenable and disastrous. Some aspects of Brexit are "bad but acceptable" but this was an "if we don't revert this one British R&D and science are screwed" aspect

staying associated with horizon was part of the brexit agreement Boris signed the EU delayed implementation in order to use horizon as a stick to apply political pressure in an unrelated area (as it continues to do with switzerland)

Groupings of countries have great leverage over single countries, who knew!

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#90

Post by nvm0n2 » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 11:58 AM UTC

kramerger wrote: post #24

phh wrote: post #14

FWIW, I don't have numbers, but Horizon Europe is both a research funding scheme and an industry innovation funding scheme. https://research-and-innovation.ec.europa.eu/funding/funding... says "This is 70% of the budget earmarked for SMEs." It has both direct research grants (ERC grants), and funds for big consortium projects, where most of the money goes to big companies, with some money also going to SMEs and resea…

Maybe. This whole brexit thing happened by ignoring researchers and listening to whoever spoke louder :) On the other hand, since brexit happened most international research teams in UK have lost key members to other countries so maybe someone finally took notice.

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached".

So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but this is one more argument that just didn't turn out right.