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Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

bloomberg.com

11–20 of 51 posts

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#11
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea with campaigns like these is not to actually root out spies - it's to get people to self censor because they're afraid that their neighbor is going to report them to the government. If everyone is afraid of saying any forbidden ideas, nothing "subversive" can spread because everyone lives in too much fear to spread it. Knowledge of this campaign is more important than the function of the campaign its…

It's kind of impressive to watch Xi continually double-down on disastrous policy. The memory of the Cultural Revolution is still there, and nobody wants to revisit those times. But after the disastrous Shanghai lockdowns, a lot of ordinary people realized that the government can just arbitrarily lock you up and destroy your ability to earn money / run your business. Young people who sacrificed their childhood to rele…

Same here, the first thing I thought after reading the title was "wait, again?!" - knowing what inciting people to hunt witches usually turns into, I thought that guy is utterly fearless, at the very least.

Though, maybe he counts on this push not to work. He might see it as a temporary measure that will fizzle out quickly, giving him some time and not many headaches down the road. He'd be an incurable optimist then...

If this incitement works, it'll leave a mark on society for many decades into the future. In the best case, people will enjoy the ride for a few years and then tacitly agree not to speak of it. In the worst, there will be widespread lynches, pogroms, bloodshed on the level of Stalinist purges, then either a revolution or Great Terror for years to decades, and it'll take a century to fully (if that's even possible) heal.

What does Xi want to get out of it, really? Surely he's not stupid enough to think he'll catch any of the actual spies that are bound to be there anyway? Is whatever he wants to gain really worth playing with this particular fire? It would be safer to start an actual war, like his buddy did...

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#12
post #8
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea with campaigns like these is not to actually root out spies - it's to get people to self censor because they're afraid that their neighbor is going to report them to the government. If everyone is afraid of saying any forbidden ideas, nothing "subversive" can spread because everyone lives in too much fear to spread it. Knowledge of this campaign is more important than the function of the campaign its…

It's kind of impressive to watch Xi continually double-down on disastrous policy. The memory of the Cultural Revolution is still there, and nobody wants to revisit those times. But after the disastrous Shanghai lockdowns, a lot of ordinary people realized that the government can just arbitrarily lock you up and destroy your ability to earn money / run your business. Young people who sacrificed their childhood to rele…

> It's kind of impressive to watch Xi continually double-down on disastrous policy.

"Well, did it work for those people?"

"No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might... but it might work for us."

Autocrats' egos are bigger than history lessons, I suppose.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#13
post #3

Worth adding to the Evil Overlord List: When making decisions about my security forces, I will bear in mind the example of East Germany's supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful Stasi...and of how utterly useless they proved to be. Better to be accidentally killed by the Hero's comic-relief Sidekick than to have my Evil Empire collapse without the Hero having had to lift a finger.

> how utterly useless they proved to be Worse than useless. Consider the social and economic utility of people that piss others off. No actual harm caused. Not bad people. Just those neighbours or colleagues or friend’s significant others that, through selfishness and lack of awareness or simply bullheadedness, question everything and come up creative (sometimes not totally legit or invited) workarounds. Those people…

From the worldconquer.org version of the Evil Overlord List:

> 208. Members of my Legion of Terror will attend seminars on Sensitivity Training. It's good public relations for them to be kind and courteous to the general population when not actively engaged in sowing chaos and destruction.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#14
post #5

> Police in Henan province have urged citizens to quiz neighbors they mistrust on pop culture to ascertain their patriotism, while Shandong province state media published posters with the tagline “spies might be all around you.” All this campaign will do is generate a ton of false positives. They'll end up duplicating Russia's practice of reporting people you don't like as unpatriotic. The US also has some experience…

> The US also has some experience with the practice [1], but fortunately those days are way behind us.

You must have been in a coma for several years after 9/11. There's also the recent anti-China initiatives by the Justice Department / FBI indicting dozens of professors and researchers, the majority of which have failed to secure any convictions for spying or espionage.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#15
post #5

> Police in Henan province have urged citizens to quiz neighbors they mistrust on pop culture to ascertain their patriotism, while Shandong province state media published posters with the tagline “spies might be all around you.” All this campaign will do is generate a ton of false positives. They'll end up duplicating Russia's practice of reporting people you don't like as unpatriotic. The US also has some experience…

Idk, NK does this for a pretty long time and at allowed Kim to stay in power

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#16
post #3

Worth adding to the Evil Overlord List: When making decisions about my security forces, I will bear in mind the example of East Germany's supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful Stasi...and of how utterly useless they proved to be. Better to be accidentally killed by the Hero's comic-relief Sidekick than to have my Evil Empire collapse without the Hero having had to lift a finger.

It’s perhaps wishful thinking to believe that oppressive states will automatically fall apart. Stasi-infested East Germany could well have kept existing had it not been located next to a Western democracy that everyone was looking towards. Look at Eritrea or North Korea, for example. China, too, doesn’t have a direct neighbor that exerts the same influence on it as West Germany on the GDR. Moreover, China already began to roll out years ago surveillance tech that the Stasi could have only dreamed of.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#17
post #3

Worth adding to the Evil Overlord List: When making decisions about my security forces, I will bear in mind the example of East Germany's supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful Stasi...and of how utterly useless they proved to be. Better to be accidentally killed by the Hero's comic-relief Sidekick than to have my Evil Empire collapse without the Hero having had to lift a finger.

The point of the Stasi wasn’t to find/prosecute dissent, it was to create an environment that prevented it from occurring, spreading, or gaining traction. The Stasi existed to sow the fields of popular politics with salt through creating an environment of paranoia.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#18
post #5

> Police in Henan province have urged citizens to quiz neighbors they mistrust on pop culture to ascertain their patriotism, while Shandong province state media published posters with the tagline “spies might be all around you.” All this campaign will do is generate a ton of false positives. They'll end up duplicating Russia's practice of reporting people you don't like as unpatriotic. The US also has some experience…

> All this campaign will do is generate a ton of false positives

The way a totalitarian government thinks, false positives are a feature, not a bug.

Better a hundred innocent people are kidnapped by the secret police and tortured to death than a single person who disagrees with the CCP is allowed to live. -- Xi Jinping, probably

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#19
post #3

Worth adding to the Evil Overlord List: When making decisions about my security forces, I will bear in mind the example of East Germany's supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful Stasi...and of how utterly useless they proved to be. Better to be accidentally killed by the Hero's comic-relief Sidekick than to have my Evil Empire collapse without the Hero having had to lift a finger.

It’s perhaps wishful thinking to believe that oppressive states will automatically fall apart. Stasi-infested East Germany could well have kept existing had it not been located next to a Western democracy that everyone was looking towards. Look at Eritrea or North Korea, for example. China, too, doesn’t have a direct neighbor that exerts the same influence on it as West Germany on the GDR. Moreover, China already beg…

In time, all states fall apart. Or get conquered. Or lose a civil war / revolution. Or whatever.

Sure, China has a bunch of advantages (large scale, distinct ethnic/national identity, etc.) that the GDR didn't have. But Chinese history records ~4,000 years of dynasties, emperors, generals, etc. with similar authoritarian ambitions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasties_in_Chinese_history

Saying "This Time Will Be Different, Because $Yet_Another_New_Reason" also has an extremely long history.

Re: Xi’s Security Obsession Turns Ordinary Citizens into Spy Hunters

#20
post #3

Worth adding to the Evil Overlord List: When making decisions about my security forces, I will bear in mind the example of East Germany's supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful Stasi...and of how utterly useless they proved to be. Better to be accidentally killed by the Hero's comic-relief Sidekick than to have my Evil Empire collapse without the Hero having had to lift a finger.

Stasi was very efficient in suppression of German dissent. East Germany collapsed on the account of persistent information inflow from the West (TV, radio, zero language barrier against West Germany), plus its ideological allies (the Warsaw Pact led by USSR) abandoning them. A country of 17 million isolated in a sea of non-friendly powers would be unviable. Once USSR dropped the Brezhnev Doctrine of Limited Sovereign…

They also have AI now. Listening in on every phone call and monitoring every video camera is a real possibility for the first time in history.
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