Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration • Hacker News Board

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#61

Post by rootusrootus » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 7:37 PM UTC

llbeansandrice wrote: post #39

ccooffee wrote: post #4

Someone logged a 500 hectare plot in Borneo. They split this into 125 sections and planted 0, 1, 4, or 16 "tree species that are frequently targeted for logging". After 20 years, satellite imagery shows that the more tree species you planted, the more recovered the land appears to be. I'm left wondering: 1. Why did they plant only tree species that are frequently targeted for logging? This makes the whole experiment…

> Why did they plant only tree species that are frequently targeted for logging? Because the main purpose of replanting trees to is be able to harvest them again in the next few decades. Private land owners generally aren't interested in creating old-growth forests, they're trying to make money. It's not exactly ideal, but ending up with more biodiversity is likely a good thing even if it will be logged again later.…

> Private land owners generally aren't interested in creating old-growth forests, they're trying to make money.

To be clear, in the western US this is by design. Large swaths of private land are zoned for forest. Aside from a few niche instances of grandfathering, you cannot build on them. They're useful for recreation and logging, and that's all that's allowed.

The gov't wants them to be logged regularly. If they really wanted old growth forests they'd make it public land (it's not especially expensive land, either, right after a patch gets logged it's not uncommon for the owner to put it on the market fairly cheap).

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#62

Post by unglaublich » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 7:43 PM UTC

liotier wrote: post #7

ccooffee wrote: post #4

Someone logged a 500 hectare plot in Borneo. They split this into 125 sections and planted 0, 1, 4, or 16 "tree species that are frequently targeted for logging". After 20 years, satellite imagery shows that the more tree species you planted, the more recovered the land appears to be. I'm left wondering: 1. Why did they plant only tree species that are frequently targeted for logging? This makes the whole experiment…

Between clear-cut horror and ideal pristine old growth, there is a world of managed forests that fix carbon with an economically sustainable model. Not the best biodiversity but mixing sixteen species makes the initiative top tear already.

And generally, these forests are subdivided in plots of different 'age'. Every year, they will log 1/20th of the forest or so. The wildlife might be able to move from an affected area to one of the bordering areas.

In fact, this model comes quite close to natural destruction of forests, where old trees would fall over, and wildfires would rage.

The only difference is that the process is not random, but nicely planned and managed to allow _humans_ instead of _wildfires and storms_ to reap the full-grown timber.

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#63

Post by twunde » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 7:49 PM UTC

swader999 wrote: post #58

voisin wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roughly where are you in BC? I am in Cranbrook and haven’t seen the seed trees left standing in logged blocks but maybe I’ve missed them somehow. Isn’t part of the issue that historically there would’ve been more deciduous trees that acted as natural fire breaks and now loggers only are allowed to replant coniferous?

I've planted all over BC. Seed trees started being a thing early nineties and they don't do it everywhere. Quite often its because there aren't species needed as seed trees that won't already grow back are already slated for nursery production and replanting. Smaller block sizes act this way too, the boundaries are seeded from the older growth on the perimeter. Deciduous trees like poplar, Adler, and birch are like w…

You may also hear this practice called selective cutting/lumbering. Essentially they leave trees in ones or twos scattered through to reseed the area around it.

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#64

Post by hinkley » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 7:58 PM UTC

RetroTechie wrote: post #34

myshpa wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anyone can find a more conclusive study about temperate Western forests, I'd love to see it. I didn't. But there's no reason why it shouldn't work there. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/2167048/fore... Forest study in China finds mix of trees can absorb twice as much carbon as areas with one species More than 60 scientists from China, Switzerland and Germany were involved in the research, testing…

"Such forests were also less vulnerable to disease and extreme weather events, which are becoming increasingly frequent as a result of climate change, Schmid said." That might well be an underestimated aspect. We don't know how climate will change locally, what pests will spread where, what species will turn out best adapted to future conditions, or what species turn out to be keystones in specific ecosystems. So we…

Simard proved that deep rooted trees pull up water that ends up in shallow rooted plants, and that evergreens share sugars with deciduous trees in early spring, and then the direction reverses during the height of photosynthesis. Specifically in the case of water, the trees cannot transport enough water to keep up with peak transpiration, so they slowly dry out. But all night long they're still pulling up more water, more than they can use, more than they can store, and some of the excess ends up in their neighbors, through capillary action or the rhizosphere.

There’s an implication of intent here, regarding plant-to-plant transport and fairness, that I think is more likely explained by osmotic pressure. Entropy itself is 'fair' in this regard. Fungal hyphae aren’t designed to manage huge nutrient or water gradients. In fact they seem to be designed to communicate information at an alarming speed. Which we still do not entirely understand.

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#65

Post by joshvm » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 7:58 PM UTC

ccooffee wrote: post #4

Someone logged a 500 hectare plot in Borneo. They split this into 125 sections and planted 0, 1, 4, or 16 "tree species that are frequently targeted for logging". After 20 years, satellite imagery shows that the more tree species you planted, the more recovered the land appears to be. I'm left wondering: 1. Why did they plant only tree species that are frequently targeted for logging? This makes the whole experiment…

Re satellite. At Sentinel resolution (10-20m) not much, maybe enough to distinguish plantation from natural forest spectrally. At Planet (3m) and below you can start to see large individual trees.

It's very difficult to accurately measure biodiversity from space. Drone imagery might get you species visually but until we have widespread hyperspectral (see ESA CHIME) 12-13 bands is what most people work with.

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#66

Post by hinkley » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 8:01 PM UTC

rolph wrote: post #29

myshpa wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anyone can find a more conclusive study about temperate Western forests, I'd love to see it. I didn't. But there's no reason why it shouldn't work there. https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/2167048/fore... Forest study in China finds mix of trees can absorb twice as much carbon as areas with one species More than 60 scientists from China, Switzerland and Germany were involved in the research, testing…

there was a time when logging an area, and subsequent monospecific replanting had a name. it was called a tree farm there was a commercialized ignorance of what forest actually was.

There was a scary forest ghost story a few years ago and all of the trailers and the PR shots showed neat, tightly spaced rows of firs.

That’s not a forest it’s a fucking tree farm.

Now is there a Princess Mononoke style paranormal revenge story out there for destroying the forest? Absolutely. But this ain’t it.

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#67

Post by hosh » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 8:09 PM UTC

voisin wrote: post #50

hosh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a more thoughtful way of designing this. In the permaculture world, these would be called “guilds”. Species are selected with an understanding of canopy layers (so that plants don’t compete for sunlight and can still fill in spaces at each canopy layer), and ecological function (such as, nitrogen fixer, dynamic accumulators, pollinator attractors, habitats, etc) If you randomly mix up species in temperate for…

I’d love to see a resource where someone could select their location and have example guilds like this provided. Every time I’ve looked it seemed like the only way to find out was to take a permaculture design course which is well beyond the limits of my interest.

This is a good video on the specific design principles for guilds, from Canandian Permaculture Legacy at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLPUN2wGbwA

And yeah, site analysis is where I would start:

1. "Where Am I?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XNiacRhzuM

2. "Sectors" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=233GgYhtoGs&list=PLNdMkGYdEq...

3. "Zones" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaUlnvGhnho&list=PLNdMkGYdEq...

4. "Slope" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McopD04XP3s&list=PLNdMkGYdEq...

These will inform you of how everything comes together, and it starts with an understand of your place on earth (particularly, the lat/lng and how that affects the sun cycle; then regional forces that is discussed in "Sectors". Then you designs zones on your site based on how much human contact you have.

You can get the rest of the Oregon State University PDC lectures from Andrew Millison from https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNdMkGYdEqOCvZ7qcgS3e...

Permaculture is very heavy on design, even if the end result doesn't look like it.

And yes, I had thought of creating a mod for an open source CAD that can pull in knowledge bases and databases as a permaculture design assistant. For example, there is a researcher whose lifetime work was to collect nutritional information for plants from all over the world so that people can select a nutritionally complete set of native plants. It's not more widely known because that knowledge base is locked into a desktop dbms from before web apps.

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#68

Post by mvdtnz » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 8:13 PM UTC

myshpa wrote: post #24

jvm___ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The money is in growing saplings of white-pine, the ones commercial re-planters will buy - because they grow fast and can be turned into toilet paper in 25(?) years. Growing saplings of local 'slow' growing, non-harvestable species doesn't make you $$$. "In essence, forest nurseries tended to maintain a limited inventory of a select few species, electing to prioritize those valued for commercial timber production ove…

Maybe we should plant seeds, same as nature does. Dozens of different seeds per m2, nature would choose what'd survive and flourish. An example of a forest farm planted with the same approach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ST9NyHf09M

If you want to prioritise speedy regeneration then this is not the best approach. Nature is incredibly effective in the slow and steady mode of operation but to maximise efficiency you need to be more deliberate.

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#69

Post by salynchnew » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 8:17 PM UTC

Shouldn't be surprising.

The Miyawaki method shows success when a few principles are followed: -Planting naturally-occurring communities of plants, not monocultures (bonus points for including microfauna and soil microbes) -Planting locations are semi-randomized, with room for plants to expand and reseed. -Stands of trees are protected/watered for first 3-5 years. -Local communities are engaged and have a vested interest in protecting/maintaining stands of trees for the first few years.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24577389?mag=the-miyawaki-metho...

Re: Replanting logged forests with diverse seedlings accelerates restoration

#70

Post by swader999 » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 8:17 PM UTC

twunde wrote: post #63

swader999 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've planted all over BC. Seed trees started being a thing early nineties and they don't do it everywhere. Quite often its because there aren't species needed as seed trees that won't already grow back are already slated for nursery production and replanting. Smaller block sizes act this way too, the boundaries are seeded from the older growth on the perimeter. Deciduous trees like poplar, Adler, and birch are like w…

You may also hear this practice called selective cutting/lumbering. Essentially they leave trees in ones or twos scattered through to reseed the area around it.

Yeah maybe, selective cutting looks different though, like 1-2 hectare pieces and roads everywhere. This seed trees thing has blocks up to about 90 hectares that are rectangles with ten or twenty trees still standing in it.