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Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

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Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#61
post #57
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple, sure, but AWS still charges insane rates. I can get 60k IOPS on a nanode at $5/mo rate. You actually get a random amount between 20k-60k depending on the type of machine they provision your nanode on. You want 60k IOPS on AWS? Be prepared to pay like 4-5k/mo. Want multiple systems with it so you can cluster a reasonably performance database? Pay for each and you need to special request the ability to go past…

A m7gd.medium looks like it would do all that inexpensively.

Not sure about arm, different ISA is a pain.

But the base configuration, for the money, is pretty sad compared to what you get else where. Scaling up is horrendously expensive compared to other providers.

Why would you bother with AWS for this I don't even know. There is no draw to AWS if you are only using EC2. You couple your architecture to their specialized services and go all in and eat the platform risk, and long term cost.

Or... don't even bother with AWS. It makes no sense to use just EC2.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. AWS can be as simple or complex as you want it to be.

Just not cheap.

It's definitely cheap(er) if you have very predictable load patterns and need to scale up and down fast.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. IAM is like having a house with doors that lock. It doesn't matter how big or small your house is, you're going to want the ability to restrict who can go where and do what. It's part of basic security. If they're not doing that, and their 1 server is talking to AWS resources, it means its using superadmin credentials. If that 1 server is compromised, can you see why that would be a bad idea?

But does not using IAM mean that they are not doing anything to handle credentials securely?

How do you secure AWS credentials on a compromised machine?

Any solution that you build is going to be more complicated and less secure than IAM. In IAM, your workload/server can have an identity. The software running on the server is issued temporary credentials as needed, and only has access to resources linked to the role. How do you do this without identity and access management? Roll your own because IAM is too crazy?

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#64
post #9

There's nothing wrong with feeling this way, but you're comparing a very small company (your own) to a much larger corporation. The appeal of AWS' "insane" bills are that they are not so "insane" when compared to the salaries required to maintain a home grown stack in-house, especially as complexity increases. It's not just application complexity, it's organizational complexity. Doing everything yourself is fine unti…

You make it sound as though there’s some obscene sprawl of interrelated tooling, barely held together with shell scripts, and only OP knows how it all works.

Nothing described is that weird, nor should it have difficulty horizontally scaling when and if the time comes - add another node, and front it with a load balancer.

The problem is that DevOps has shifted so heavily to Dev that “I’m running services natively on a Linux box” is somehow seen as Byzantine and arcane.

> when you use shell scripts for deploys… can’t as easily prove things to auditors as you can with a CI/CD system

What do you think a CI/CD system is running? Also, if /var/log/auth.log isn’t enough, there are other auditing systems available that could make this more granular.

> industry compliance standards

IME, these are a joke, and auditors routinely miss a dizzying amount of glaring problems, because they don’t look beyond records that humans generated.

> every hour you spend upgrading a database or patching an OS…

Patching the OS should be automated. If it isn’t, that’s on you. Ansible isn’t hard to learn.

As to the database, if you can’t read docs (both MySQL and Postgres have excellent documentation on this procedure) and perform them as written, frankly you shouldn’t be dealing with RDS either. It’s not like AWS docs aren’t confusing, spread over a million pages, and sometimes contradictory.

Pardon the seething undertone, but as an ops-heavy SRE/DBRE, I’m very tired of seeing people lambast ops as being somehow beneath modern practices, not worthy of their time, or worse, not cost-effective. A well-written app can absolutely run just fine on a tiny server, and does not need the miasma of shit that is cloud-native. Computers are blindingly fast. Stop demanding infinitely-scaling vCPUs because optimization is hard. Stop pretending that your time is more valuable than minutiae like “my ORM is producing garbage queries resulting in hideous latency because I don’t understand SQL or schema design.”

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#65
You are doing just fine. If you need to eventually scale or just add reliability, spend some time learning HAProxy and slap that in front of a couple of nodes.

If you’re concerned about security, spend some time learning SELinux. I’m assuming you’ve already done the reasonable defaults like public key required for ssh, no root login, fail2ban, etc.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#66
post #12
post #4

> I'm keeping things simple, so I've got mostly Go services, pg + caching, and a svelte webapp. I deployed my Go services on a low-ish end bare metal provider, and for now it is fine. Deployments are triggered via scripts, and so far so good. Is it sexy, using all the latest and greatest tech? No, its just simple shell scripts. But it works? Don't change a thing. This is perfect. > Am I wrong to think that I could pr…

One thing I would point out is that the simplicity of StackOverflow's hardware stack means that it would also be very simple to host in a cloud provider like AWS. I would also point out that StackOverflow isn't an incredibly good performer compared to a number of other websites. Check it out on PageSpeed Insights. I also used a couple other tools that suggest that it loads slower in some regions than others.

> Check it out on PageSpeed Insights. I also used a couple other tools that suggest that it loads slower in some regions than others.

And yet Stack Overflow has such strong SEO that outright cloning their content on a malware page will get you top 10 results.

I think people seriously overestimate the value of Web Core Vitals. At the end of the day a website is usually trying to deliver some value to a visitor: if you deliver more value by rejecting complexity, but sacrifice some speed to do it: users will still value the end result, and search engines will reward you.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#67

Using any cloud only makes sense if a) you don't know how to setup things yourself and b) your project is so big, that salaries for ops would be higher than cloud cost. Also, be careful with b) since you still need people that know how to do stuff, otherwise, you will experience either data breach or long downtimes. What most people won't admit when recommending cloud is that, yes, cloud has all sorts of utility buil…

I would change your b to, your project needs a lot of scalability. You will pay big salaries to make sure it is run correctly.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#68
post #9

There's nothing wrong with feeling this way, but you're comparing a very small company (your own) to a much larger corporation. The appeal of AWS' "insane" bills are that they are not so "insane" when compared to the salaries required to maintain a home grown stack in-house, especially as complexity increases. It's not just application complexity, it's organizational complexity. Doing everything yourself is fine unti…

You make it sound as though there’s some obscene sprawl of interrelated tooling, barely held together with shell scripts, and only OP knows how it all works. Nothing described is that weird, nor should it have difficulty horizontally scaling when and if the time comes - add another node, and front it with a load balancer. The problem is that DevOps has shifted so heavily to Dev that “I’m running services natively on…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#69
post #9

There's nothing wrong with feeling this way, but you're comparing a very small company (your own) to a much larger corporation. The appeal of AWS' "insane" bills are that they are not so "insane" when compared to the salaries required to maintain a home grown stack in-house, especially as complexity increases. It's not just application complexity, it's organizational complexity. Doing everything yourself is fine unti…

You make it sound as though there’s some obscene sprawl of interrelated tooling, barely held together with shell scripts, and only OP knows how it all works. Nothing described is that weird, nor should it have difficulty horizontally scaling when and if the time comes - add another node, and front it with a load balancer. The problem is that DevOps has shifted so heavily to Dev that “I’m running services natively on…

Try to see the forest for the trees here: ask yourself how does the business make money?

If I throw my application on some PaaS thing and put the database on RDS, let’s say I can hire 5 developers who know almost nothing about infrastructure to develop and deploy the application. Each developer working on the application delivers valuable business logic. Let’s say each developer makes $200,000 total compensation and they bring in $500,000 in revenue. This setup makes me $1,500,000 in operating income per year.

Now you’re saying I should find someone who knows enough about infrastructure architecture who database administration and all the other bare metal Linux fundamental topics to manage it in house rather than paying AWS all this wasteful money.

So now I have 4 developers and 1 Ops/DBA person. My AWS bill was eliminated, saving $100,000 thanks to the infrastructure and database expert doing a wonderful job cost optimizing.

But now my 4 developers have one less person to deliver features that motivate customers to sign deals with us, so now we’re making $1,300,000 operating income. (Losing $300k from the loss of a developer and gaining $100k back from cost savings.

Obviously this is a made up scenario in my favor but that’s basically how it works. Businesses shopping for employees can’t get every skill they want in a job description. One of the most important parts of business strategy is making trade-offs.

This scenario reminds me of a landlord that I had who fixed a simple problem with my dishwasher by just replacing it with a new one. They didn’t give a shit that a little bit of extra knowledge and a spare part would have fixed it for no exaggeration 100x lower cost, because resolving the problem quickly with no risk was worth more to them. In any event, I was giving that landlord many times the cost of that dishwasher every month.

The compliance certifications are kind of like the real estate agent that has a big car payment on their Mercedes so that they can sell more expensive houses to wealthier clients. Yes, we all know that buying a Mercedes isn’t the most cost effective way to get from point A to B, but you can’t sell mansions if you show up in a Kia Rio.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#70
post #52
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These high costs are Amazon's way of telling you that you aren't architecting for the cloud. In my ~10 years doing cloud infrastrcuture on AWS I've never worked at a company had to purchase dedicated IOPS or vCPU.

Which takes then off the list of providers you can do this with. They could have reasonable prices but they don't. You couple to AWS with your whole system architecture or you stay away.

If you tell me I need to go 250 miles per hour to get to the grocery store then I guess I have to buy a Bugatti.
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