Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#51

Post by dangus » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

pleoxy wrote: post #50

dangus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I would point out is that the simplicity of StackOverflow's hardware stack means that it would also be very simple to host in a cloud provider like AWS. I would also point out that StackOverflow isn't an incredibly good performer compared to a number of other websites. Check it out on PageSpeed Insights. I also used a couple other tools that suggest that it loads slower in some regions than others.

Simple, sure, but AWS still charges insane rates. I can get 60k IOPS on a nanode at $5/mo rate. You actually get a random amount between 20k-60k depending on the type of machine they provision your nanode on. You want 60k IOPS on AWS? Be prepared to pay like 4-5k/mo. Want multiple systems with it so you can cluster a reasonably performance database? Pay for each and you need to special request the ability to go past…

These high costs are Amazon's way of telling you that you aren't architecting for the cloud. In my ~10 years doing cloud infrastrcuture on AWS I've never worked at a company had to purchase dedicated IOPS or vCPU.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#52

Post by pleoxy » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 3:41 PM UTC

dangus wrote: post #51

pleoxy wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simple, sure, but AWS still charges insane rates. I can get 60k IOPS on a nanode at $5/mo rate. You actually get a random amount between 20k-60k depending on the type of machine they provision your nanode on. You want 60k IOPS on AWS? Be prepared to pay like 4-5k/mo. Want multiple systems with it so you can cluster a reasonably performance database? Pay for each and you need to special request the ability to go past…

These high costs are Amazon's way of telling you that you aren't architecting for the cloud. In my ~10 years doing cloud infrastrcuture on AWS I've never worked at a company had to purchase dedicated IOPS or vCPU.

Which takes then off the list of providers you can do this with. They could have reasonable prices but they don't.

You couple to AWS with your whole system architecture or you stay away.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#53

Post by fancythat » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 7:20 PM UTC

Saphyel wrote: post #45

fancythat wrote: post #17

Using any cloud only makes sense if a) you don't know how to setup things yourself and b) your project is so big, that salaries for ops would be higher than cloud cost. Also, be careful with b) since you still need people that know how to do stuff, otherwise, you will experience either data breach or long downtimes. What most people won't admit when recommending cloud is that, yes, cloud has all sorts of utility buil…

This is so wrong. Cloud is for DECLARE the setup, if you don't care or you don't know then avoid cloud. On-premise you can find always dodgy scripts with no copy, no backups, some people praying everyday if the service restart he'll quit, or something working but you don't know why and the worst one, everyone afraid of update anything

I don't know your experience, but mine is what I stated and I have been through two on-prem to cloud migration, one done with outside help and one without, one at Fortune 500 company with fairly, not Google scale, but large setup. General theme was that if can't get your things straight on-prem, you surely won't be able to manage cloud as it adds additional level of complexity on top of your usual setup.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#54

Post by fancythat » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 7:22 PM UTC

qwytw wrote: post #42

fancythat wrote: post #17

Using any cloud only makes sense if a) you don't know how to setup things yourself and b) your project is so big, that salaries for ops would be higher than cloud cost. Also, be careful with b) since you still need people that know how to do stuff, otherwise, you will experience either data breach or long downtimes. What most people won't admit when recommending cloud is that, yes, cloud has all sorts of utility buil…

> your project is so big, that salaries for ops would be higher than cloud cost. Couldn't it be the other way? On lower scale saving significant amounts of time just to save a few hundreds or thousands might not be worth it. OTH if you're paying millions to AWS hiring an extra person or two to save 20-50% (or whatever) might be a very good deal.

Location plays a role here. If you are in the industry where your people are paid 200k usd minimum then cloud will probably pay off, if you can pay them 1/5 of that, then it is probably another way around. Ahrefs cloud story reminds me of this in some way.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#55

Post by mindcrash » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

37 Signals is living proof nobody needs a public cloud.

And from my own experience, basically what all cloud providers are relying on is ops being lazy.

Set up some decent hardware in a good data center, set up a good platform on top of it, automate the hell out of it and with all current open source software you can run everything by yourself.

At least, that's something I am currently actively researching because our cloud bills are going through the proverbial roof and I rather would spend that money on our own stuff, than Jeff's next house.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#56

Post by hooverd » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 7:48 PM UTC

Saphyel wrote: post #45

fancythat wrote: post #17

Using any cloud only makes sense if a) you don't know how to setup things yourself and b) your project is so big, that salaries for ops would be higher than cloud cost. Also, be careful with b) since you still need people that know how to do stuff, otherwise, you will experience either data breach or long downtimes. What most people won't admit when recommending cloud is that, yes, cloud has all sorts of utility buil…

This is so wrong. Cloud is for DECLARE the setup, if you don't care or you don't know then avoid cloud. On-premise you can find always dodgy scripts with no copy, no backups, some people praying everyday if the service restart he'll quit, or something working but you don't know why and the worst one, everyone afraid of update anything

The cloud is that but with TerraForm, or god forbid, CloudFormation.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#57

Post by phonon » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 10:48 PM UTC

pleoxy wrote: post #50

dangus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I would point out is that the simplicity of StackOverflow's hardware stack means that it would also be very simple to host in a cloud provider like AWS. I would also point out that StackOverflow isn't an incredibly good performer compared to a number of other websites. Check it out on PageSpeed Insights. I also used a couple other tools that suggest that it loads slower in some regions than others.

Simple, sure, but AWS still charges insane rates. I can get 60k IOPS on a nanode at $5/mo rate. You actually get a random amount between 20k-60k depending on the type of machine they provision your nanode on. You want 60k IOPS on AWS? Be prepared to pay like 4-5k/mo. Want multiple systems with it so you can cluster a reasonably performance database? Pay for each and you need to special request the ability to go past…

A m7gd.medium looks like it would do all that inexpensively.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#58

Post by datadrivenangel » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 11:50 PM UTC

mindcrash wrote: post #55

37 Signals is living proof nobody needs a public cloud. And from my own experience, basically what all cloud providers are relying on is ops being lazy. Set up some decent hardware in a good data center, set up a good platform on top of it, automate the hell out of it and with all current open source software you can run everything by yourself. At least, that's something I am currently actively researching because ou…

To be fair, 37 signals still has terabytes of data in S3 according to DHH... So I don't know if it's fair to say that they're cloudless...

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#59

Post by fragmede » Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 11:58 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #34

syndicatedjelly wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does not using IAM mean that they are not doing anything to handle credentials securely?

To keep with the house analogy, not using IAM is like building your own locks for your house. It might be enough for now, but if you grow big enough to be a target it's very likely your home-spun lock won't stand up to professionals.

To use the house analogy, it's more like a shed vs a mansion. How many doors are there? How many different keys are there for them, and is there a master key? If you have a shed, there's only going to be one key, for the door. Maaaaaybe a key for the safe inside. If it's an exorbitant mansion with three kitchens and two garages, there's a key for the front door, a key for your bedroom, a key for the safe room, a key to the wine cellar, a key to the garage, a key to the IT closet, a key to the office, a key to the... you get the point.

If it's only ever going to be a shed, there's no need for the infrastructure to support that many keys.

Re: Ask HN: Do I need AWS? Or am I thinking this wrong?

#60

Post by syndicatedjelly » Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 12:34 AM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #34

syndicatedjelly wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But does not using IAM mean that they are not doing anything to handle credentials securely?

To keep with the house analogy, not using IAM is like building your own locks for your house. It might be enough for now, but if you grow big enough to be a target it's very likely your home-spun lock won't stand up to professionals.

Thanks, that makes sense. What does IAM offer that a stand-alone service like Keybase doesn’t? At what scale of project does it make sense to use one over another?