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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#341

Post by palata »

synergy20 wrote: post #262
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go's major selling point to me is that you can ship one binary, nothing beats that. Python, Node, Java all have to pre-install lots of dependencies before you can use them, fine for developers, not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it. c and c++ can also do one executable, but, it is not as portable…

How do you distribute a Go library? How do you distribute a Go library that has dependencies?

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#342

Post by osigurdson »

guideamigo_com wrote: post #271
arein3 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exception handling and generics are missing key pieces from go. But adding them will make go look like java. I just wish java would add null safety in the type system in a first citizen way. For enterprise use java has no competitors. You have c# which is microsoft trying to estabilish nash equilibrium fu*ing the developers. I am a bit worried about ever increasing complexity and a steep learning curve, but seems lik…

Afaik, no language as great of exceptional handling as Java. I prefer Go but I have to admit, Java's checked exception handling is amazing.

I don't think the jury will ever return on this topic.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#343

Post by neonsunset »

bad_user wrote: post #337
neonsunset wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is an inferior language to C#. To get a superior language you would likely have to go for Kotlin. There is no comparison, because Java gets features today that C# had for years. Not even mentioning having to retrofit green threads because adopting async/await (used by TS, Rust, Swift and other languages) is impossible at this point.

C# does not have virtual threads. What C# has is async/await. Which was nice for its time, but at the same time it's an error prone design, as computations should never start async by accident, blocking should be the default. C# also has no useful interruption model. Java's interruption model is error prone, but at least you can work with it. Async/await also splits the standard library and the ecosystem in 2 (blocki…

Do give async/await in C# a try, it has all the structured concurrency features other languages have to invent APIs and special syntax for :)

(if you want to take a look at good structured concurrency, you might be interested in Swift implementation)

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#344

Post by palata »

troupo wrote: post #329
kryptonomist wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go almost instant build time is a huge productivity boost when compared to Java. You get both the solidity of a typed language, and the development speed of interpreted languages (py, js).

Java's build times are very fast. Java's build tools are anything but. And I'm surprised no one is doing anything about it.

That's because everybody is busy shipping full web browsers with a hard-coded website inside and calling that an "app".

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#345

Post by riku_iki »

x86x87 wrote: post #240
anoy8888 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is correct. It is about culture too. Java is the kind of language that attracts some mediocre programmers who produce mediocre code based on the wrong ideas of object oriented programming. of course, there are great Java programmers. It is just that a better programming language would help average programmers like us to achieve more

That escalated quickly. There are good and less good people everywhere and using language X does not automatically tell anything about you. If anything I think the cases where you can use Go successfully are only o fraction of the cases where you can use Java successfully. It's not necessarily Java itself but the ubiquity of the JVM and its ecosystem (see Kotlin, see Scala as examplea that have leveraged this ecosyst…

> the cases where you can use Go successfully are only o fraction of the cases where you can use Java successfully

could you elaborate why do you think so, and maybe give examples of cases where Go can't compete with Java?..

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#346

Post by neonsunset »

iopq wrote: post #338
Bognar wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft uses C# internally and has a vested interest in making it better for all of its own developers, as well as making it good to increase industry adoption so it has a larger pool of skilled developers to hire from. Your arguments about who backs the language don't hold water.

Does it have a vested interest to make everything work cross-platform?

Well, Linux has won the cloud meaning it is and will be a primary target for .NET.

I'm not sure what vested interest MSFT had in some of the changes introduced for iOS in .NET 8, but now it can be targeted with NativeAOT too, so there is clear investment and dev effort both from community contributors and MSFT employees to support various platforms.

Somewhat arbitrary example, there is also a project to support RISC-V (https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/84834).

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#347

Post by ozim »

synergy20 wrote: post #262
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go's major selling point to me is that you can ship one binary, nothing beats that. Python, Node, Java all have to pre-install lots of dependencies before you can use them, fine for developers, not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it. c and c++ can also do one executable, but, it is not as portable…

If you want to distribute app to non tech people you do it via browser ;)

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#348

Post by hmottestad »

anoy8888 wrote: post #238
throy930493 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C# is a better language, but the JVM is a significantly better ecosystem. Java will always be behind (and type erasure for generics is annoying enough as someone who started in C# that I don't think it will ever catch up) but between hotspot and being the preferred language of 2/3rds of the clouds I think it clearly wins.

If you like jvm, use closure instead.

Sorry you’re down voted. Closure might not be what the author is looking for.

There are a lot of languages you can use with the JVM, Closure is one of them, Groovy, Scala and Kotlin are some more. Kotlin is gaining a lot of traction, especially since it’s backed by JetBrains.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#349

Post by palata »

insanitybit wrote: post #35
hutzlibu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with inheritance. But sure, there is usually something wrong with deep inheritance or using it, where better solutions exist.

No, there's a lot wrong with inheritance. It leads to all sorts of issues and while theoretically one can keep the tree 1 level deep, in practice it's too tempting to expand the hierarchy. This is one of Java's big issues. The other is reference equality as a default, pretty horrible. Records help but records are also limited in when they can be used.

> No, there's a lot wrong with inheritance.

No, there is a lot wrong with bad code. No need to blame the language or any programming concept.

Note that I say that for all programming languages, not just Java.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#350

Post by ivan_gammel »

bedobi wrote: post #200
ivan_gammel wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone writing code on Java since v1.0 and making tech strategy decisions on the C-level, I consider myself sane and experienced enough to say that Java is something that will do the job well and can be the primary choice for startups and new projects. Kotlin as a platform is not mature enough to deserve the same qualification.

I'm sure you have done great work in Java, as have many of us, and for many of those years, Java really was the best tool for many jobs. But that was then, now is now. I'm not saying Java doesn't work, even for greenfield projects today. It works fine. But me and many others also think it's not enough for something to merely work, especially not when there are other much better and more modern tools. (which Java is d…

To build a good product you don’t need a kid with Hollywood star complex, for whom the choice of programming language or tools matters that much.

If Java repels such self-proclaimed “best talent”, good, because the team will be healthier without them. There’s enough engineers willing to learn and write a good code on Java to solve a business or an user problem, and they are absolutely not mediocre. There’s even no such thing as a scale on which you could put an engineer to measure some “greatness”. Every person is unique and has talents that may be useful in different types of projects.

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