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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#331

Post by catlover76 »

neonsunset wrote: post #294
mu53 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a good language, but the corporate sponsor and community is suspect. Microsoft has a long history of user hostile actions. The types of companies that use C# often treat SWE as second class. Learning and using C# limits career options to low salary, high stress jobs.

I'm going to vouch for this comment but not because it is correct but rather it presents good opportunity to address the concern. C# and .NET are most heavily invested in by Microsoft which owns and steers its development, that is true. It is also true that JVM world sees investment from multiple MSFT-sized corporations. And yet, despite the above, it keeps moving forward and outperforming Java on user experience, pe…

I don't have as much experience or knowledge as others in this thread, but just taking the opportunity to chime in that C# is a great language, and pretty pleasant to work with. And it was a language to which I was introduced as a 24 year old at a venture-backed startup, not at like Boeing or the company Dilbert works at or something.

It has features like LINQ. It has routinely had a lot of good updates, new features always coming out, increases in performance, etc. The primary thing lacking has been good support for developing and deploying on Linux, and a couple other devops-related things. It's a shame to see that holding it back, but at least MSFT actually opened up Linux support at all (nobody thought they would).

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#332

Post by blq10 »

x86x87 wrote: post #240
anoy8888 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is correct. It is about culture too. Java is the kind of language that attracts some mediocre programmers who produce mediocre code based on the wrong ideas of object oriented programming. of course, there are great Java programmers. It is just that a better programming language would help average programmers like us to achieve more

That escalated quickly. There are good and less good people everywhere and using language X does not automatically tell anything about you. If anything I think the cases where you can use Go successfully are only o fraction of the cases where you can use Java successfully. It's not necessarily Java itself but the ubiquity of the JVM and its ecosystem (see Kotlin, see Scala as examplea that have leveraged this ecosyst…

So the ideal blub language will be whatever language is too new to really be the legacy thing with tons of black magic you just have to know, but also too old to include tons of new ideas in language design the programmer has to grapple with.

Old languages force you to understand really core issues because the stack is 1m+ lines of code and you need an operating model for all that magic.

New languages do the same thing, but it's because half the really good stuff is

Python and JS are in the current sweetspot, go is up next, and after that, Rust.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#334

Post by osigurdson »

northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

I once posted an Ask HN: what are your build times. A golang developer stated their 25 million line project compiles in less than half a second. If that is really the case, I must say, this is very impressive and potentially a reason to switch from other languages.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#335

Post by [deleted] »

devjab wrote: post #325
neonsunset wrote: post #224

Sad this gets to front page while a blog post which documents that .NET 8 has 200 A4 pages worth of performance improvements gets absolutely ignored. C# keeps being the language people are looking for but don't know about.

It’s because C# is only really nice on the surface. As soon as you actually do something with it that takes it beyond its cozy CRUD, it becomes such a nuisance to work with. We have an ODATA client that we build our selves to use in our React frontend. Now, this would obviously not have been something we also used on the backend if we knew what we know now, but it’s the perfect example to illustrate my decades of exp…

[deleted]

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#336

Post by bbkane »

neonsunset wrote: post #294
mu53 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a good language, but the corporate sponsor and community is suspect. Microsoft has a long history of user hostile actions. The types of companies that use C# often treat SWE as second class. Learning and using C# limits career options to low salary, high stress jobs.

I'm going to vouch for this comment but not because it is correct but rather it presents good opportunity to address the concern. C# and .NET are most heavily invested in by Microsoft which owns and steers its development, that is true. It is also true that JVM world sees investment from multiple MSFT-sized corporations. And yet, despite the above, it keeps moving forward and outperforming Java on user experience, pe…

See https://isdotnetopen.com/ for why people think .NET has openness issues

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#337

Post by bad_user »

neonsunset wrote: post #226
arein3 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exception handling and generics are missing key pieces from go. But adding them will make go look like java. I just wish java would add null safety in the type system in a first citizen way. For enterprise use java has no competitors. You have c# which is microsoft trying to estabilish nash equilibrium fu*ing the developers. I am a bit worried about ever increasing complexity and a steep learning curve, but seems lik…

Java is an inferior language to C#. To get a superior language you would likely have to go for Kotlin. There is no comparison, because Java gets features today that C# had for years. Not even mentioning having to retrofit green threads because adopting async/await (used by TS, Rust, Swift and other languages) is impossible at this point.

C# does not have virtual threads. What C# has is async/await. Which was nice for its time, but at the same time it's an error prone design, as computations should never start async by accident, blocking should be the default. C# also has no useful interruption model. Java's interruption model is error prone, but at least you can work with it.

Async/await also splits the standard library and the ecosystem in 2 (blocking vs non-blocking, or blue vs red), and it can't automatically update the behavior of old code.

The introduction of virtual threads in Java also works well with "structured concurrency", as seen with Kotlin's Coroutines. Kotlin's approach to concurrency is also superior to that of C#, actually. But what's interesting about Java is that its evolution is often one that involves runtime changes, lifting all boats. Java engineers preferred pushing more changes in the runtime, and somewhat ironically, the JVM ended up being the true multi-language runtime.

Java is a good case study of how languages should evolve. It has extreme backwards compatibility, and features being pushed are assessed for how they impact the whole ecosystem, including libraries or languages not in Oracle's control. Project Loom was developed in the open, compared to what Microsoft usually does.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#338

Post by iopq »

Bognar wrote: post #308
mu53 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a good language, but the corporate sponsor and community is suspect. Microsoft has a long history of user hostile actions. The types of companies that use C# often treat SWE as second class. Learning and using C# limits career options to low salary, high stress jobs.

Microsoft uses C# internally and has a vested interest in making it better for all of its own developers, as well as making it good to increase industry adoption so it has a larger pool of skilled developers to hire from. Your arguments about who backs the language don't hold water.

Does it have a vested interest to make everything work cross-platform?

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#339

Post by metaltyphoon »

thangalin wrote: post #310
neonsunset wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is an inferior language to C#. To get a superior language you would likely have to go for Kotlin. There is no comparison, because Java gets features today that C# had for years. Not even mentioning having to retrofit green threads because adopting async/await (used by TS, Rust, Swift and other languages) is impossible at this point.

Java, prints 1: Set s = new HashSet (); s.add( new File( "c:/temp" ) ); s.add( new File( "c:/temp" ) ); System.out.println( s.size() ); C#, prints 2: ISet s = new HashSet (); s.Add( new FileInfo( "c:/temp" ) ); s.Add( new FileInfo( "c:/temp" ) ); Console.WriteLine( s.Count ); C#, test fails: string path = "/tmp/filename.txt"; FileInfo f = new FileInfo( path ); File.CreateText( path ).Dispose(); Assert.True( f.Exists…

FilInfo doesn’t override Equal operator in C#. HashSet will use it for comparison and those are two different object references so idk what the confusion is here.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#340

Post by jmauritz »

Thaxll wrote: post #246
arein3 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By enterprise I mean a lot of features related to data consistency, scalability and integrations. I do not know about go ecosystem, but java and spring have mature solutions that cover the most advanced use cases.

Kubernetes is what I would call very advanced use case. But that's the thing with Java, yes there are libraries for everything and one could see that as a problem actually. Spring was mentioned before, but it's the perfect example of an overengineered/ heavy library that does a lot of black magic.

If all you have is spring boot, everything looks like a spring boot problem.
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