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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#311

Post by waffletower »

northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

From my vantage as a Clojurist, virtual threads on the JVM seem to have very minimal benefits. All I can think of at the moment, is that we could have thread-safe JDBC connectors: https://medium.com/oracledevs/introduction-to-oracle-jdbc-21...

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#312

Post by kryptonomist »

northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

Go almost instant build time is a huge productivity boost when compared to Java. You get both the solidity of a typed language, and the development speed of interpreted languages (py, js).

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#313

Post by waffletower »

speedgoose wrote: post #264
totallywrong wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. Matter of taste I guess, to me Go code looks ugly, it's too verbose with all that error handling every other line which hurts readability. Also the docs are often so cryptic and unhelpful, one needs to rely on examples elsewhere. I do use it though, when I need something fast in a single binary.

My main pet peeve with Golang is to use single letter or very short abbreviations when naming variables. The Golang documentation recommends what is considered a bad practice by most programmers communities.

Yes, short abbreviations are brutal in long sprawling code contexts. Write in a compact, functional, and readily unit testable coding style, and those tiny variables reduce your cognitive load and bring great clarity. Use comments and/or docstrings to provide context for compact parameters and local variables once, rather than implicitly documenting with every usage.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#314

Post by synergy20 »

paradite wrote: post #287
synergy20 wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go's major selling point to me is that you can ship one binary, nothing beats that. Python, Node, Java all have to pre-install lots of dependencies before you can use them, fine for developers, not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it. c and c++ can also do one executable, but, it is not as portable…

You mentioned "distribute software" but did not consider Electron for Node. You can make an Electron app with JavaScript and ship the binary (or installer) on any platform. It's not a single executable file, but the user experience is the same. I don't think there's an equivalent in Go that allows you build a desktop app like that (with frontend and backend both written in Go)?

electronjs is probably the best cross platform desktops GUI,just a bit heavy.I actually use wxwidgets for GUI desktop apps.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#315

Post by packetlost »

kaba0 wrote: post #153
gabereiser wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>” None of the memory problems of C++” I’m sorry, I’m calling BS here. You can still leak memory in Java.

var list = []; while (true) { list.add(1); } Here you are, which language won't leak memory here? Also, which language will let you connect to a prod instance without a performance hit to get some stats on the heap and its allocated objects? Hell, you can even list every instance of a type as I've recently learned.

>var list = [];

> while (true) { list.add(1); }

idk, I don't think endlessly growing memory usage is really what a leak is, a leak is really when you have no way of accessing the allocated memory to free it (ex. dropping the last remaining pointer to a `alloc`'d block in C) or the opposite in garbage collected languages: accidentally holding onto a strong reference to objects that should be freed.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#316

Post by classabove »

speedgoose wrote: post #264
totallywrong wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. Matter of taste I guess, to me Go code looks ugly, it's too verbose with all that error handling every other line which hurts readability. Also the docs are often so cryptic and unhelpful, one needs to rely on examples elsewhere. I do use it though, when I need something fast in a single binary.

My main pet peeve with Golang is to use single letter or very short abbreviations when naming variables. The Golang documentation recommends what is considered a bad practice by most programmers communities.

Are you specifically referring to method function receiver type annotations? Those are often left shorthand but shouldn't exist out of the type definition file anyway eh?

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#317

Post by ArandomAccount2 »

Has anyone used virtual threads? I tried to migrate my app over to VT's and kept experiencing random deadlocks and I couldn't figure out what was causing them. I tried moving all the synchronized blocks to reentrant locks, but that didn't work. I also tried turning on the TV debugging system properties, but none of them printed the problem.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#318

Post by devjab »

bedobi wrote: post #61

[flagged]

If I look at the job market in my area it’s dominated by Java. There are a lot of .Net jobs as well but they are typically at companies you really don’t want to work for, so it’s basically so much easier for you to find a nice job if you’re into Java.

I’m not, mind you, but maybe 21 will actually change that. I guess it’ll depend more on the tooling than anything else. Because the things I dislike the most about current world Java is that it’s very dependent on 3rd party “addons” to become a nice working experience. Like, you’ll probably want to use Quarkus if you’re doing anything enterprise related, but then you’re putting yourself at the mercy of Big Blue. I’m not sure that Java21 will change that, if it will then it’ll probably be a world where Java dominates even harder than it already does.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#319

Post by mathiasgredal »

synergy20 wrote: post #262
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go's major selling point to me is that you can ship one binary, nothing beats that. Python, Node, Java all have to pre-install lots of dependencies before you can use them, fine for developers, not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it. c and c++ can also do one executable, but, it is not as portable…

You just add the -static argument, if you want a fully static executable that can run on any linux distro: ‘g++ -o main main.cpp -static’

You can even go above and beyond with cosmopolitan libc v2, which makes c/c++ build-once run-anywhere: https://github.com/jart/cosmopolitan/releases/tag/2.0

There seems to be some work getting cosmopolitan libc support in Go, but it is not ready like it is for c/c++: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/51900

Edit: There can be some problems with using static, if you are using your system package manager for library dependencies. I would recommend compiling dependencies from source using CMake and FetchContent, this has solved pretty much all problems I have had with c++ dependency management.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#320

Post by brightball »

northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

Java 21 has me anticipating the next JRuby release because of Virtual Threads. Charles Nutter gave a talk about JRuby in August where he showed a demo of the impact on Ruby fibers and it’s pretty significant.

There’s a lot that I really like about the JVM and it’s tooling, I just don’t like writing Java code anymore. JRuby kinda gives the best of both worlds.

Here’s the talk. Virtual thread demo is around the 45 minute mark.

https://youtu.be/pzm6I4liJlg?si=GtxQ4MThEaNDfC67

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