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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#271

Post by guideamigo_com »

arein3 wrote: post #197
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Exception handling and generics are missing key pieces from go. But adding them will make go look like java. I just wish java would add null safety in the type system in a first citizen way. For enterprise use java has no competitors. You have c# which is microsoft trying to estabilish nash equilibrium fu*ing the developers. I am a bit worried about ever increasing complexity and a steep learning curve, but seems lik…

Afaik, no language as great of exceptional handling as Java. I prefer Go but I have to admit, Java's checked exception handling is amazing.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#272

Post by guideamigo_com »

Phelinofist wrote: post #27
xyst wrote: post #5

Big firms I have worked at still using Java 8. Dead.

We have an app that also needs to be able to run on Android, so we are held back by the shitty Java Google implements for Android.

You can use [limited] Java 17 with Google's Android. The compiler converts Java 17 -> Java 8 bytecode.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#273

Post by segfaltnh »

loxias wrote: post #136
belter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the memory problems of C++, the speed of C++ most of the time. Thousands of high quality libraries, a JVM that is a marvel of engineering after 20 years, tooling for development, monitoring and introspection of exceptional quality. Many of the internal tools at the largest Cloud developed in Java. Most enterprise level software. NASA extensive use of Java. A team behind the development who has stunning common…

> None of the memory problems of C++ Every time I see something like this I roll my eyes... C++ doesn't have any "memory problems". There are sometimes human problems, such as thinking one is capable of coding without understanding the (basic programming) concept of a pointer. But that's because the human's dumb, not a language problem. (This argument also sometimes comes from those who do understand basic programmin…

It must be hard being perfect. The rest of us will keep looking for solutions for mortals.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#274

Post by sgloutnikov »

hota_mazi wrote: post #248
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go gives you the illusion of simplicity because it gets rid of guard rails and error checking. If you remove all error checking, of course your code is going to look a lot simpler. It's also going to be a lot more wrong and crashy. Wait until your code base grows, your team grows to >10 developers, and you will understand what I mean. Java (and preferably Kotlin) are a lot more serious about making sure your code is…

I've heard this argument before, and I point out Kubernetes to them. Is that code base complex enough, because it's pure Go doing just fine and runs on plenty of systems?

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#275

Post by ashishb »

synergy20 wrote: post #262
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go's major selling point to me is that you can ship one binary, nothing beats that. Python, Node, Java all have to pre-install lots of dependencies before you can use them, fine for developers, not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it. c and c++ can also do one executable, but, it is not as portable…

Fully compiled languages have another huge advantage. If you write a tool in Python and targeted say Python 3.10 then people using Phython 3.9 might not be able to use it. So, you really can't use latest and greatest features of Python 3.11 or 3.12. However, with Go, you can build your tool in Go 1.21 or whatever, and the user does not even need a Go toolchain on their machine.

I was planning to write a small side-project to generate GitHub Actions boilerplate. And this time, I intentionally chose Go for that exact reason. https://github.com/ashishb/gabo

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#276

Post by nonethewiser »

kaba0 wrote: post #195
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

> This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. You are just at the early phase of the project. > Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain My opinion is that Go is too simple, to the point that it hinders understanding and readability. 4 nested loops with random mutability is much worse…

Im convinced Go is just an incomplete language masquerading as a simple one.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#278

Post by chii »

synergy20 wrote: post #262
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Go's major selling point to me is that you can ship one binary, nothing beats that. Python, Node, Java all have to pre-install lots of dependencies before you can use them, fine for developers, not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it. c and c++ can also do one executable, but, it is not as portable…

> not so great if you want to distribute software for people who are not software savvy, who typically just wants to download one file, install and start using it.

i think it's a flaw that wasn't considered properly in the standard java toolchain to not produce an embedded java runtime into a final packaged artifact that is self-executable.

You end up with third party tooling like: https://www.ej-technologies.com/resources/install4j/help/doc... (and https://launch4j.sourceforge.net/ too).

If oracle bundled this tool into the JDK, it would've not been an issue at all.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#279

Post by cdogl »

pm90 wrote: post #217
rcme wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is “enterprise” use? Plenty of enterprises use Go.

Not really. Software first enterprises do. But most enterprises that have a non-software focus generally prefer languages that have been around for a while and are known by lots of people.

I’ve written go code for large corporates in Australia who absolutely did not have a tech or software focus. One was a notoriously bureaucratic company which used to be a government owned enterprise. For the niches it fills well, it’s become almost ubiquitous.

With regard to this:

> But most enterprises that have a non-software focus generally prefer languages that have been around for a while and are known by lots of people.

I know developers who work for large blue chip financial sector and other traditional sectors. They’re on the same React/Vue/Webpack/whatever treadmill as all the frontend devs devs working at web dev agencies. And they’re often compiling it down from TypeScript, which has not been around for a very long while at all and is not known by lots of people (relative to the size of the JS community.

Swinging a bit of Go for a service in an environment like that isn’t really that hard.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#280

Post by nsajko »

wslh wrote: post #40
insanitybit wrote: post #16

The problems with Java can't be fixed by adding new things, you can't undo decades of ecosystem development, training, and ideology built on top of the idea that inheritance is really good idea and belongs everywhere. edit: I will say that as a Java developer I am grateful every day for the improvements to the language. Java is a very impressive language and I have a lot of respect for the people working on it.

Please ELI5 what is wrong with inheritance and/or how Java have it wrong. Do we need to go back to a new object oriented undegraduate course? Genuinely asking.

"Prefer composition over inheritance" is actually a well-known mantra and appears in, for example, the Design Patterns book from 1994, which is basically the OOP bible. And this is within the OOP bubble, you won't even find inheritance outside of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns

Don't take undergraduate OOP courses seriously.

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