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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#221

Post by justrealist »

loxias wrote: post #25
justrealist wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could you possibly like C++ but feel that Java is bloated? Like I academically understand disliking Java but this just makes no sense.

??? I'll answer your question with a question: Have you seen https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris... ? :) I'm guess that to those of us who remember when Java came out, "FizzBuzz: EE" is what we think of when we think of Java. :P In Java I have to type a bazillion characters to get anything done! And make all these useless directories and files and InterfaceClassFactoryProtocolStreamingSeriali…

> In Java I have to

You have to do literally none of these things to write working Java.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#222

Post by ickyforce »

wslh wrote: post #40
insanitybit wrote: post #16

The problems with Java can't be fixed by adding new things, you can't undo decades of ecosystem development, training, and ideology built on top of the idea that inheritance is really good idea and belongs everywhere. edit: I will say that as a Java developer I am grateful every day for the improvements to the language. Java is a very impressive language and I have a lot of respect for the people working on it.

Please ELI5 what is wrong with inheritance and/or how Java have it wrong. Do we need to go back to a new object oriented undegraduate course? Genuinely asking.

"What OOP users claim" -> https://i.imgur.com/KrZVDsP.png

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#223

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

fuzztester wrote: post #210
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been writing OOP code and reading about it for a decade or two, and inheritance was identified as problematic pretty quickly. The problem today, imo, is more underuse now.

>inheritance was identified as problematic pretty quickly Exactly what I referred to here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37539443

Yeah, it’s a bit like how the school version of lisp makes people think real lisp code bases are all lists and recursion.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#225

Post by bb88 »

kaba0 wrote: post #167
jhaenchen wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Java injection frameworks are opaque and accomplish what they need to with overly powerful mechanisms because of the nature of the language. You don't see that sort of nonsense in python.

Wtf, so what do you think Django is?

I'm curious to understand what dependency injection is in Django that you're referring to?

I know pytest does DI with fixtures, and trying to figure out what you're pulling into a test can be difficult.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#226

Post by neonsunset »

arein3 wrote: post #197
impulser_ wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think any existing Go developer is going back to Java. I worked with Java for 10 years and switched to Go and I will never go back. This is mostly because applications and libraries are so hard to reason about and understand due to inheritance, packaging, OOP, build tools ect compared to Go. Go is simple. It's easy to understand, read, and maintain. The packaging is like how you would package files on your co…

Exception handling and generics are missing key pieces from go. But adding them will make go look like java. I just wish java would add null safety in the type system in a first citizen way. For enterprise use java has no competitors. You have c# which is microsoft trying to estabilish nash equilibrium fu*ing the developers. I am a bit worried about ever increasing complexity and a steep learning curve, but seems lik…

Java is an inferior language to C#. To get a superior language you would likely have to go for Kotlin. There is no comparison, because Java gets features today that C# had for years. Not even mentioning having to retrofit green threads because adopting async/await (used by TS, Rust, Swift and other languages) is impossible at this point.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#227

Post by throy930493 »

neonsunset wrote: post #226
arein3 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exception handling and generics are missing key pieces from go. But adding them will make go look like java. I just wish java would add null safety in the type system in a first citizen way. For enterprise use java has no competitors. You have c# which is microsoft trying to estabilish nash equilibrium fu*ing the developers. I am a bit worried about ever increasing complexity and a steep learning curve, but seems lik…

Java is an inferior language to C#. To get a superior language you would likely have to go for Kotlin. There is no comparison, because Java gets features today that C# had for years. Not even mentioning having to retrofit green threads because adopting async/await (used by TS, Rust, Swift and other languages) is impossible at this point.

C# is a better language, but the JVM is a significantly better ecosystem. Java will always be behind (and type erasure for generics is annoying enough as someone who started in C# that I don't think it will ever catch up) but between hotspot and being the preferred language of 2/3rds of the clouds I think it clearly wins.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#228

Post by g9yuayon »

northern-lights wrote: post #31

The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.

> If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this.

Not sure about this, but a trajectory question: why does the Go community have so few concurrent containers but Java community does? I mean, even `sync.Map` is specialized for two specific use cases instead of like Java's ConcurrentMap that is of general purpose. And In Java there are concurrent sets, queues, barriers, phasers, fork-join pools, and etc. I'd assume that even with Go's go routines, we can find great use of such containers, right? At least fork-join is not that trivial to implement. And using mutex everywhere seems just so... low level.

I understand that there are 3rd-party implementations, but concurrency is so tricky to get right that I would be really hesitant to adopt a 3rd-party package, unless it is as mature as Java's JCTools or Google Guava, both of which are also backed by a large number of users and developers.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#229

Post by cmrdporcupine »

wayfinder wrote: post #106
bedobi wrote: post #61

[flagged]

Well when Sun imploded and Oracle stepped in, Java stopped getting regular releases for 10 years. Java versions literally came out every 2 years before Oracle happened. So that’s why they’re 10 years behind. But now they come out like 2+ times a year so they’re on track making major progress. Also the null thing hasn’t been an issue for over 10 years. Just use null annotations and both your static checker and your ID…

TBH, Sun was already excessively conservative with language features in Java long before the Oracle purchase.

The JVM runtime though is and was a miracle of engineering. Enough to make the mediocrity of the language worth it. Though these days I don't (and don't want to) work in it, I absolutely understand why companies could make the choice to do so.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#230

Post by [deleted] »

throy930493 wrote: post #227
neonsunset wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is an inferior language to C#. To get a superior language you would likely have to go for Kotlin. There is no comparison, because Java gets features today that C# had for years. Not even mentioning having to retrofit green threads because adopting async/await (used by TS, Rust, Swift and other languages) is impossible at this point.

C# is a better language, but the JVM is a significantly better ecosystem. Java will always be behind (and type erasure for generics is annoying enough as someone who started in C# that I don't think it will ever catch up) but between hotspot and being the preferred language of 2/3rds of the clouds I think it clearly wins.

[deleted]
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