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Java 21 makes me like Java again
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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#62Can you convince me to use Java? I’ve never used it (only C++, Python, CL) but it feels bloated and dirty.
I’m a fan, long time fan, but I can honestly say that I feel Java is one of the most pragmatic development systems on the planet.
It can do most anything. It can do it most anywhere. And you can code in it using several different paradigms.
It’s easy to install, it’s easy to be instal several versions, the footprint, by today’s standards, is not enormous.
It’s easy to deploy, especially server side. While you can certainly do all of that modern stuff with containers and what not, it’s not really necessary for Java. Drag and drop a JDK install, anywhere. Plonk your Java server code, anywhere, and point it at your JDK, and. . .that’s it! Fire it up. The JDK is remarkably light on dependencies.
And since most Java apps are “pure Java”, the apps rarely have a dependency outside of the JDK. And since Java apps routinely bundle their Java dependencies, the apps don’t stomp on each other either. Even SQLite bundles it’s binaries in the Java Jar file. So wherever that jar goes (again, and typically bundled with your app), SQLite goes. No floating dependencies.
Desktop bundling requires a bit of search engine research, but it’s doable. And the runtimes can dwarf something like Electron installs.
As a language is Java ELEGANT? Not particularly. It has its own elegance in some areas but that can break down or get overrun in others.
But, boy howdy, it sure is practical. The ecosystem is so huge. It compiles really fast. I marvel at the stories folks tell about their dev cycles in other languages. How do they get anything done, besides sword fighting?
I love Java, but I’m very comfortable in it. But the Maven based dependency system works, it’s huge, it makes use and reuse simple. The IDEs are powerful and mature.
And, finally, Java’s not dead. Hardly. Oracle has been a surprisingly good steward (with warts, as always). The language has been on a rocket of development and shows no sign of slowing down. Server side is still very hot with all the frameworks and all the different approaches. Things like GraalVM taking the JVM in a whole new direction.
And, yea, that. I’ve only been talking Java the language, not the JVM itself per se. That’s a whole other thread.
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#63Can you convince me to use Java? I’ve never used it (only C++, Python, CL) but it feels bloated and dirty.
How could you possibly like C++ but feel that Java is bloated? Like I academically understand disliking Java but this just makes no sense.
I mean...Java is run through a VM while C++ is compiled to native code.
I can see that being used as a reasonable argument for bloat.
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#64Nice article as someone familiar with sum types but not sum types in Java. I don't know if sum types alone are enough to get me to like Java, pervasive nullability is still around and even rears its head multiple times in this article.
Nullable is a huge issue in Java, but annotation-based nullability frameworks are both effective and pervasive in the ecosystem (and almost mandatory, IMO). I'm really excited about https://jspecify.dev/ , which is an effort by Google, Meta, Microsoft, etc to standardize annotations, starting with @Nullable.
I hope they succeed. So many people have tried.
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think people are understanding 'bloated' differently. I agree C++ is bloated in a 'just make it a setting' / 'add this feature' / 'kitchen sink' sort of way. I agree Java is bloated in a boilerplate, empty directories, maybe except for another directory, 'oh god the boilerplate' sort of way.
> I agree C++ is bloated in a 'just make it a setting' / 'add this feature' / 'kitchen sink' sort of way. Interesting. Can you expand on this, explain more? I honestly don't know what you mean or are referring to -- and I'm a heavy modern c++ advocate -- but suspect if I did it might expand my mindset/viewpoint a bit. :)
Honestly I haven't actually used it since C++14 was new, but it's a common complaint IME that each 'edition' (as Rust would call it, I don't know remember the term, standard?) adds too much, there's too many ways of doing things, variations of pointers, boost, and so on.
I think a lot of people wish it had stayed at say C++7, a mature C superset, but that's enough now. I probably should have said 'I understand' rather than 'I agree' - I don't feel strongly, I don't use either of them.
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
I rarely see inheritance used in practice in java code bases. Except where I would use a union type or sealed class in other languages anyways. I don't feel what youre describing is a real issue.
Sorry, what? Is not java toghether with Ruby maybe the most hardcore OOP enthusiasts that uses inheritance for "most stuff". Has the java culture move so far the last decade ?
Effective Java, written by Joshua Bloch, and first published in 2001, had a very influential section called Favor composition over inheritance:
https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=Ra9QAAAAMAAJ&q=inheritan...
Why do you think DI is so prevalent in Java codebases? It's a great way of simplifying composition.
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#67[flagged]
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
How could you possibly like C++ but feel that Java is bloated? Like I academically understand disliking Java but this just makes no sense.
??? I'll answer your question with a question: Have you seen https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpris... ? :) I'm guess that to those of us who remember when Java came out, "FizzBuzz: EE" is what we think of when we think of Java. :P In Java I have to type a bazillion characters to get anything done! And make all these useless directories and files and InterfaceClassFactoryProtocolStreamingSeriali…
When java came out? So mid 90s c++ vs mid 90s java?
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
None of the memory problems of C++, the speed of C++ most of the time. Thousands of high quality libraries, a JVM that is a marvel of engineering after 20 years, tooling for development, monitoring and introspection of exceptional quality. Many of the internal tools at the largest Cloud developed in Java. Most enterprise level software. NASA extensive use of Java. A team behind the development who has stunning common…
>” None of the memory problems of C++” I’m sorry, I’m calling BS here. You can still leak memory in Java.
Isn't that true in any language that lets you allocate memory?
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#70[flagged]
This ... is how you make engineering choices?