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Java 21 makes me like Java again

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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#41

Post by jayd16 »

hutzlibu wrote: post #38
belter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the memory problems of C++, the speed of C++ most of the time. Thousands of high quality libraries, a JVM that is a marvel of engineering after 20 years, tooling for development, monitoring and introspection of exceptional quality. Many of the internal tools at the largest Cloud developed in Java. Most enterprise level software. NASA extensive use of Java. A team behind the development who has stunning common…

What would be a modern IDE for Java? I remember programming Java in Eclipse. And it was powerful for the time, but everytime I read bloated, I automatically think Eclipse since then..

IntelliJ is very good.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#42

Post by insanitybit »

lelanthran wrote: post #37
insanitybit wrote: post #16

The problems with Java can't be fixed by adding new things, you can't undo decades of ecosystem development, training, and ideology built on top of the idea that inheritance is really good idea and belongs everywhere. edit: I will say that as a Java developer I am grateful every day for the improvements to the language. Java is a very impressive language and I have a lot of respect for the people working on it.

> ideology built on top of the idea that inheritance is really good idea and belongs everywhere. Those are two different ideas.

I used the word "and" to indicate that, yes.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#43

Post by Horffupolde »

cbarrick wrote: post #32
Horffupolde wrote: post #4

Can you convince me to use Java? I’ve never used it (only C++, Python, CL) but it feels bloated and dirty.

Throughput in Java can be quite high, and latency can be quite low. You still occasionally get latency spikes from the GC, but these days that's not so bad. (If you are extremely latency sensitive, stick to C++). Dependency injection frameworks are your bread-and-butter in server-side Java, and some can take a while to grok, but Java can be very productive after the chosen framework "clicks" for you. Typically, this…

Yes, I agree that Python can feel “dirty”, although not necessarily “bloated.”

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#44

Post by belter »

hutzlibu wrote: post #38
belter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the memory problems of C++, the speed of C++ most of the time. Thousands of high quality libraries, a JVM that is a marvel of engineering after 20 years, tooling for development, monitoring and introspection of exceptional quality. Many of the internal tools at the largest Cloud developed in Java. Most enterprise level software. NASA extensive use of Java. A team behind the development who has stunning common…

What would be a modern IDE for Java? I remember programming Java in Eclipse. And it was powerful for the time, but everytime I read bloated, I automatically think Eclipse since then..

https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#45

Post by hutzlibu »

insanitybit wrote: post #35
hutzlibu wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing wrong with inheritance. But sure, there is usually something wrong with deep inheritance or using it, where better solutions exist.

No, there's a lot wrong with inheritance. It leads to all sorts of issues and while theoretically one can keep the tree 1 level deep, in practice it's too tempting to expand the hierarchy. This is one of Java's big issues. The other is reference equality as a default, pretty horrible. Records help but records are also limited in when they can be used.

"in practice it's too tempting to expand the hierarchy."

Not anymore, if you got stuck, by doing that once too often. But 2-3 levels can be allright as well. It depends, what you are doing amd with whom.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#46

Post by leapis »

hmottestad wrote: post #24
leapis wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends- one of the hardest parts of the 11-20 upgrade for us was that cms gc was removed. If you run a bunch of different microservices with distinct allocation profiles, all with high allocation pressure and performance constraints, and you've accomplished this w/ the help of a very fine-tuned CMS setup, migrating that over to G1/ZGC is non-trivial

Is that what happened at your company?

Yup. We've clearly benefitted- G1 and generational ZGC have large advantages over CMS- but it's a lot of experimentation and trial-and-error to get there, whereas other deprecations/removals are usually easier to resolve.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#47

Post by sisve »

xxs wrote: post #28
matsemann wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely see inheritance used in practice in java code bases. Except where I would use a union type or sealed class in other languages anyways. I don't feel what youre describing is a real issue.

Inheritance used to be extremely common, look at AWT/Swing - however more or less it finished there, e.g. more than 20y back. There are still lots of folks who love 'protected' and deep hierarchies, of course. There is stuff like spring that uses way too many interfaces with a single implementation, doing something a bit off the regular road ends up implementing tons of the said interfaces anew. However the 'hate' pa…

Great to hear. I used to program java in 2010 and inheritance was still beeing heavily used back then. But things change, if both the lang and the main community has change to focus more on simplicity its def worth looking at again. Coroutines and pattern matching is really good features

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#48

Post by loxias »

OJFord wrote: post #39
justrealist wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could you possibly like C++ but feel that Java is bloated? Like I academically understand disliking Java but this just makes no sense.

I think people are understanding 'bloated' differently. I agree C++ is bloated in a 'just make it a setting' / 'add this feature' / 'kitchen sink' sort of way. I agree Java is bloated in a boilerplate, empty directories, maybe except for another directory, 'oh god the boilerplate' sort of way.

> I agree C++ is bloated in a 'just make it a setting' / 'add this feature' / 'kitchen sink' sort of way.

Interesting. Can you expand on this, explain more? I honestly don't know what you mean or are referring to -- and I'm a heavy modern c++ advocate -- but suspect if I did it might expand my mindset/viewpoint a bit. :)

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#49

Post by insanitybit »

wslh wrote: post #40
insanitybit wrote: post #16

The problems with Java can't be fixed by adding new things, you can't undo decades of ecosystem development, training, and ideology built on top of the idea that inheritance is really good idea and belongs everywhere. edit: I will say that as a Java developer I am grateful every day for the improvements to the language. Java is a very impressive language and I have a lot of respect for the people working on it.

Please ELI5 what is wrong with inheritance and/or how Java have it wrong. Do we need to go back to a new object oriented undegraduate course? Genuinely asking.

Inheritance provides "is a" relationships between classes. At a time when people would spend months designing their software upfront, building big diagrams of classes, etc, this was not so bad. You'd have a very clean system design that maps directly to your class design.

The problem is when things change. A simple example - you build a classification of all life and it is built upon the idea that everything "is a" plant or animal. And then one day it turns out there are fungi. This is not a fun situation to deal with and inheritance makes it a lot harder because the "is a" relationship is driving a ton of your logic.

IDK I don't want to get to into it beyond that, many people have written quite a lot on the topic.

Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again

#50

Post by xxs »

leapis wrote: post #19
hmottestad wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going from 11 to 21 is a lot easier.

Depends- one of the hardest parts of the 11-20 upgrade for us was that cms gc was removed. If you run a bunch of different microservices with distinct allocation profiles, all with high allocation pressure and performance constraints, and you've accomplished this w/ the help of a very fine-tuned CMS setup, migrating that over to G1/ZGC is non-trivial

Java sort of suck for microservices (microservices suck on their own) as it has relatively high bootstrap cost.

High allocation rate feels weird with micro services - I suppose that depends a lot on the coding style. G1GC is meant for generally large setups, with several cores at least. E.g. the default setup of 2048 areas on 2GB heap means, allocations over 1MB require special care.

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