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Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

timesofisrael.com

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Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#21

Post by da-x »

tguvot wrote: post #20
pcthrowaway wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of the community is that the women are often the breadwinners in addition to being homemakers and caretakers. I wonder if/how this will be sustainable as things become more and more expensive. Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside i…

>Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences both. they supposed to enroll to army but in case they study in yeshiva they typically avoid it, till they reach the age when army "looses" interest in you. it's one of the major pain points in israe…

The argument _for_ the exemption is that it will allow them to join the workforce and contribute to the economy, instead of staying in the yeshiva (which is currently a condition necessary to get the _current_ exemption, and which I think also furthers cements into the orthodox lifestyle). I wonder whether this argument can be tested before the exemption is actually given.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#22

Post by da-x »

edgineer wrote: post #2

I've heard of organizations like Footsteps[0] that help NYC Orthodox Jews leave. I sure hope there's something like that in Israel. [0] https://footstepsorg.org/

There are so many of them, and they are in fact so successful, that a Knesset MP _suggested_ passing a law that will make it criminally illegal to elicit orthodox jews to leave the religion! Link: https://www.maariv.co.il/news/israel/Article-991752

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#23

Post by fakedang »

da-x wrote: post #21
tguvot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences both. they supposed to enroll to army but in case they study in yeshiva they typically avoid it, till they reach the age when army "looses" interest in you. it's one of the major pain points in israe…

The argument _for_ the exemption is that it will allow them to join the workforce and contribute to the economy, instead of staying in the yeshiva (which is currently a condition necessary to get the _current_ exemption, and which I think also furthers cements into the orthodox lifestyle). I wonder whether this argument can be tested before the exemption is actually given.

So secular folks risk their lives in military service to secure the lives of these Haredis, and upon returning to civilian life find out that no jobs exist for them, because the (quite hated) Haredis have taken them up? Sounds like a very sound recipe for stability indeed.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#24

Post by lm28469 »

wkat4242 wrote: post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

> That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted.

Same mistake as we make for radical Islam.

These aren't religions, they're cultures/law systems/political systems/belief systems, that encompass everything you can think of, for people born in these nothing of value exists out of them

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#25

Post by mnky9800n »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #16
mnky9800n wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement has the same air of statements like "not every man is a sexist", yes but men in general are responsible for how men in general treat women. If Jews do not hold to account the extremist views that lead to murder and violence their brothers have then they are too blame as well.

Your post is needlessly strident and kneejerk, and your claim that an uninvolved third party has to take certain action to avoid blame is obviously not something that everyone would agree on. In any event, Israeli society is extremely divided and, indeed, half of it has been trying hard to hold the other half to account. This is obvious to any visitor to Israel who talks to a wide range of people. Protests have been…

Don't Americans have some responsibility for the mass dead Iraqis? Whether they supported the war directly or not they sat by while their country waged war for economic reasons. Why is it ok to accept violence wrought by others? Good that some Israelis protest. But what prevents needless death and pain? What actions bring peace?

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#26

Post by OfSanguineFire »

mnky9800n wrote: post #25
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post is needlessly strident and kneejerk, and your claim that an uninvolved third party has to take certain action to avoid blame is obviously not something that everyone would agree on. In any event, Israeli society is extremely divided and, indeed, half of it has been trying hard to hold the other half to account. This is obvious to any visitor to Israel who talks to a wide range of people. Protests have been…

Don't Americans have some responsibility for the mass dead Iraqis? Whether they supported the war directly or not they sat by while their country waged war for economic reasons. Why is it ok to accept violence wrought by others? Good that some Israelis protest. But what prevents needless death and pain? What actions bring peace?

You are trying to hijack my reply and turn this thread into a debate on what actions should be taken, who is to blame, etc. Please don't use HN for political battle. The OP made a factual error and I corrected it, no more.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#27

Post by OfSanguineFire »

fakedang wrote: post #23
da-x wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument _for_ the exemption is that it will allow them to join the workforce and contribute to the economy, instead of staying in the yeshiva (which is currently a condition necessary to get the _current_ exemption, and which I think also furthers cements into the orthodox lifestyle). I wonder whether this argument can be tested before the exemption is actually given.

So secular folks risk their lives in military service to secure the lives of these Haredis, and upon returning to civilian life find out that no jobs exist for them, because the (quite hated) Haredis have taken them up? Sounds like a very sound recipe for stability indeed.

In some countries with universal conscription that can be dodged, men who actually serve are more likely to be hired for desirable jobs. So, it could be that even if Haredim work in secular professions, those veterans would still have an advantage over them in the employment market and the Haredim wouldn't be viewed as ungrateful competition.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#28

Post by Pavel_KF »

Israeli here. Please forget what you know about the parents-children patters in your own country whn you think about Israel. Absolute majority of ultra-orthodox community is locked inside. In fact it consists of dozen offractions, hostile or very hostile to each other internally but standing together when questioned, accused or attacked from outside. But these fractions vary from those serving in the army or working for IT to Taliban-like sect where women wear full black burkas so only eyes are visable (800 or 900 live in Jerusalem). Majority of their children go to segregated religious schools where neither languages nor math, history (beyond Thora) or sciences are taught. Yes they stay in community and have little incentives to leave it. They reproduce ultra-orthodox behaviour and values in every generation. Normal number of children in each family 6-10. Apartments with 4-6 bedroom are normal in Israel and you can find 8 or 9-bedroom ones so no problem from this side. Now they demand sex-segregated events and beaches for all (UO beaches are strictly segregated). And Israel i s a religious state. Recently a cook at the military base was quite punished for making warm food (=cooking) for soldiers returning from real fighting with shooting, etc. Neither cook not soldiers were religious.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#29

Post by wkat4242 »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #27
fakedang wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So secular folks risk their lives in military service to secure the lives of these Haredis, and upon returning to civilian life find out that no jobs exist for them, because the (quite hated) Haredis have taken them up? Sounds like a very sound recipe for stability indeed.

In some countries with universal conscription that can be dodged, men who actually serve are more likely to be hired for desirable jobs. So, it could be that even if Haredim work in secular professions, those veterans would still have an advantage over them in the employment market and the Haredim wouldn't be viewed as ungrateful competition.

That's not the case everywhere. When I was young in the Netherlands it was pretty much frowned upon because conscripts would have nothing to do but smoke weed and clean some tanks for the 50th time. It was widely regarded as a waste of a year and a half. I'm very glad I was disqualified and it never was a barrier for me in life.

I guess in countries where shots are actually fired in anger this experience may vary wildly.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#30

Post by shrubble »

wkat4242 wrote: post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

Haredim society is more like the Amish, everything is tightly integrated. Far less Amish leave the church and community.
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