Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I canceled my college subscription

joshstrange.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 58 posts

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#41

Post by jenne313 »

It's infinitely easier to discuss the necessity of higher education post successful career-launch. (Did I really need to do that vs. Do I really need to finish this?)

I find it disconcerting to hear the anti-college sentiment coming directly from an about-to-drop-out college student. I suppose it is possible to find yourself, suddenly and without a degree, launching or exiting or doing something amazing, but it seems far more likely that the lack thereof (for those that decide to drop-out or never go at all,) may at some point hold you back (regardless of talent.)

I am speaking from the perspective of a drop-out. I didn't have help paying for college, but I tried to do it anyway. The demands of working full time (to pay for classes) made actually going to classes too difficult, and I failed. I was left with a tremendous amount of debt I was not able to capitalize upon, and for the next several years I paid back that debt while working from the ground up in my career field.

I hit the ceiling much faster than I anticipated - If I wanted to advance, regardless of my natural talent, I would have to go back to school. I was still paying back loans from the first go, and had to try, yet again, to manage the demands of a career and school as well. I eventually did graduate, and found that once I could check the box for that piece of paper, my opportunities for advancement evolved into true tests of my talent, not just my ability to prove I could finish something I started.

YMMV; it's easier to ask myself now: 'what did I really gain from this?' A deeper understaning of how to navigate beurocracy, a small fortune in debt, few (if any) of the skills I use on a daily basis... but the point is I can ask the question from the financially secure and comfortable seat I couldn't have gotten into any other way.

I understand that every person's path is different, and that my situation may not be the situation that Josh will find himself in. In fact, I hope that for him. Because the thought of leaving college a) so close to completion and b) that is subsidized partially by his family (leaving very little to pay off) for anything less than a six-figure exit just doesn't make sense to me.

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#42

Post by DanBC »

paulhauggis wrote: post #27
kenjackson wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the anti-intellectual sentiment is a bit broader. I'd define it as, "Those people who studied this their whole lives and have degrees and papers in journals don't know more about this topic than I do." The anti-intellectual movement is the belief that everyone is biased, and since everyone is biased their scientific position is no more correct than mine. This started more than a decade ago, and I used to joke…

"Those people who studied this their whole lives and have degrees and papers in journals don't know more about this topic than I do." Just because you've studied something your entire life doesn't make you right 100% of the time. "All those papers published in science journals are by Democrats!" The problem? Many scientific studies are also political in nature and slant to one way, which is why I start to question ma…

That's fine - a questioning attitude is great. When someone says "This research shows us X, Y and Z" it's a useful skill to look at the research and spot any flaws in the methods or the stats or the write up.

Anti-intellectualism is not that. Anti-intellectuals will say things like "I don't need to read the research, that scientist gets money from $CORPORATION and thus nothing they say can be trusted. That's why climate change is bogus." or they say "So what if that research has proven a link between $FOODSTUFF and $DISEASE? So called studies come out all the time saying this or that are dangerous. That's why cigarettes are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be."

People know very little about the scientific method ("Yeah, but that's just like a "theory"" they say, scornfully.) and scientific research is often mangled by journalists or politicians. (Also, unfortunately, by scientists needing a bit more funding.) But, worse, many people don't want to know anything about science, preferring to regard it all as too complicated or for boffins or dangerous. ("I don't want chemicals in my food!")

Anti-intellectualism appeals to fringe "science", to quack "medicine", to wishy-washy pseudo-religious idiocy, and to religious fundamentalism.

And it's not new, either. People have been railing against it for years. See, for example, "The Underground Grammarian" and this essay "Hunger in America". (scroll down a bit.)

(http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/newslettersv08/8.5.htm)

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#43

Post by DanBC »

paulhauggis wrote: post #37
kenjackson wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem paul is that this same level of criticality isn't enforced uniformly. Many, if not most, of those same people who doubt anything that comes out of Harvard, MIT, or CalTech as Democratic propaganda will cite Rush Limbaugh as a reputable authority on virtually anything. CalTech says that a certain nuclear facility has problems, Limbaugh counters by saying, "If that was the case why are most of the people in…

"Limbaugh counters by saying, "If that was the case why are most of the people in the nearby city still born with 10 fingers. Clearly those at CalTech at lying." See. you're biased. You are talking about the left and the right. Not anti-intellectualism (which described above is actually anti-elitism). The left will never admit Rush is correct, even when he as scientific proof/facts to back it up. "It's about people w…

> You need to look at who is funding the study/research/scientist to really give you an idea if you can really believe it without further research.

No. The beauty of science is that it doesn't matter who funds it. So long as they're releasing all the papers[1] and the data[2] you can check the results yourself.

[1] unethical scientists will do many studies and only release the ones that confirm the results they want to find.

[2] often data is hidden somewhere and not available.

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#44

Post by AndrewNCarr »

kylemaxwell wrote: post #29
AndrewNCarr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think if you were to ask most 30-50 year olds if they could drop most of their current responsibilities (with impunity) and go to college full time, the vast majority would. No. Especially not in the "Information Age". This from someone who continues to learn every day, to steal a quote "a day without learning is like a day without sunshine". When you ignore the social-club elements of college and focus on academi…

The only reason I don't quit and go back to grad school full-time for a few years is that I can't afford it. I have a family to support now, and so doing that would be the height of irresponsibility. It's not that I don't learn every single day now, because I do and I love that. But I can't focus single-mindedly on learning stuff because it's either cool or a stepping stone to learning cool stuff. That's what I miss.

>It's not that I don't learn every single day now, because I do and I love that. But I can't focus single-mindedly on learning stuff because it's either cool or a stepping stone to learning cool stuff. That's what I miss.

Again, this is the "Information Age", dedicated knowledge acquisition no longer requires college. For many, traditional academia is not the most efficient means of learning anyway.

Compare and contrast RIAA/MPAA & Music/Movies with College/University & intellectualism and learning. When the former criticizes the anti-SOPA movement, we laugh and shake our heads at their absurd cries. When the later criticizes "anti-intellectualism" (which really means anti-academia), many respond as desired, by shaking their heads at the image of ignorant peasants at the gates of intellectualism with pitch forks and torches. In both cases we have old, established, and powerful institutions trying to maintain their power. While one is starting to succumb (or perhaps adapt) to a changing and innovating market, the other continues to further entrench itself while raising its prices ever skyward.

It is an interesting comparison to consider. I'll end with a pertinent quote.

"Never let formal education get in the way of your learning." -Mark Twain

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#46

Post by matwood »

kylemaxwell wrote: post #30

If you treat your time in university as job training, then maybe it's not worth doing. But if you treat it as a time to learn about a whole lot of new things - including all those core subjects that so many 19-year-olds gripe about - and a time to dabble socially in environments you might not otherwise have, then it's a different matter. The post makes reference to the author enjoying being part of a fraternity. Inde…

TL;DR: if you think education is just about your career, then you missed the point somewhere along the way.

I agree, and you've touched on something about the changes in how college is viewed in general. College used to be about education, and laying a foundation for a lifetime of learning. Nowadays it seems to have shifted to be more about sports and partying.

I think going to college is in general a good thing, but it's up to the student to make the most out of the experience. That includes picking the right college, and not going into lots of debt just to go a party school. Perhaps most eighteen year old kids are simply not ready to make those sorts of life changing decisions.

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#47

Post by kylemaxwell »

AndrewNCarr wrote: post #44
kylemaxwell wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason I don't quit and go back to grad school full-time for a few years is that I can't afford it. I have a family to support now, and so doing that would be the height of irresponsibility. It's not that I don't learn every single day now, because I do and I love that. But I can't focus single-mindedly on learning stuff because it's either cool or a stepping stone to learning cool stuff. That's what I miss.

>It's not that I don't learn every single day now, because I do and I love that. But I can't focus single-mindedly on learning stuff because it's either cool or a stepping stone to learning cool stuff. That's what I miss. Again, this is the "Information Age", dedicated knowledge acquisition no longer requires college. For many, traditional academia is not the most efficient means of learning anyway. Compare and contr…

But even in this age, when you can learn so much by just going to your preferred search engine and typing "learn $topic", you still can't focus exclusively on that when you also have to focus on your job, etc.

University gives you a few years to do that.

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#48

Post by __float »

I don't think this sort of strategy really can work for anyone who wants to do something other than write code (and not really low-level systems programming, either--plain desktop and web apps, perhaps). Science, engineering, medicine, etc: the cutting edge research is published behind paywalls and more paywalls.

A university gives you opportunities for research, a decent guarantee to employers that you know what you need to know (for this reason, GPA is important). It is so much more than what people here seem to think. You can buy textbooks online, but that's it. If that's all you consider to be "college," then you're missing the big picture.

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#49

Post by kenjackson »

AndrewNCarr wrote: post #44
kylemaxwell wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason I don't quit and go back to grad school full-time for a few years is that I can't afford it. I have a family to support now, and so doing that would be the height of irresponsibility. It's not that I don't learn every single day now, because I do and I love that. But I can't focus single-mindedly on learning stuff because it's either cool or a stepping stone to learning cool stuff. That's what I miss.

>It's not that I don't learn every single day now, because I do and I love that. But I can't focus single-mindedly on learning stuff because it's either cool or a stepping stone to learning cool stuff. That's what I miss. Again, this is the "Information Age", dedicated knowledge acquisition no longer requires college. For many, traditional academia is not the most efficient means of learning anyway. Compare and contr…

College is important for several reasons, although I think one purpose it serves is probably the one most here despise the most -- credentialing.

I honestly don't think you can ever escape the need for credentials. It's simply a shortcut to help filter a vast pool of people. Even YC itself is a credential (ask those VCs who will "no questions asked" fund YC companies).

While you should continue to learn things in life, the ability to get a credential will always also be valued (working at Facebook, or being part of YC, or doing design under Jon Ives, etc...). At least until someone creates a brain app that can simply scan your brain to determine what you know.

I'd argue that college's biggest problems are (1) the credential isn't as valued as it could be due to lack of rigor. And (2) it's cost. But fundamentally the institution isn't deeply flawed, like say music distribution is.

Re: Why I canceled my college subscription

#50

Post by pm90 »

mhurron wrote: post #6
tseabrooks wrote: post #3

I'm not sure I'm ready to get on the Anti-College bandwagon. There's been a rash of Anti-College sentiment around this place lately and while part of me agrees another part of me mourns for all of these students leaving college. I know it may be an unpopular opinion but I doubt most people can get the tools they need for success in many fields (Even software) without a college degree. I'm in no way making the claim t…

>There's been a rash of Anti-College sentiment around this place lately It's no different than the general anti-intellectual sentiment growing in the US. The feeling that you can learn it all on your own without anyone telling or anyone's help is what is driving so many peoples thought processes recently. That people looked at and treat higher education as just job training and nothing more doesn't help either.

That people looked at and treat higher education as just job training and nothing more doesn't help either.

Actually this might be the main reason why college enrollments have gone through the roof recently, prompting the anti-college sentiment in the first place. If all you want to do is learn programming, you can do it at home too. But dorm life, liberal arts etc. might be something that you will only do when in college

Post reply on HN