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American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

bbc.co.uk

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Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#31

Post by adamckay »

sky_rw wrote: post #7

Im not a fan of the premise that a small percentage of a population being responsible for an outsized percentage of violence is a result of their breeding. It's the environment and socialization factors that drive this.

> It's the environment and socialization factors that drive this.

Then why is it overwhelmingly this breed that attacking people?

We accept that certain breeds have innate instincts and traits - border collies herd, labradors retrieve, greyhounds run, pointers point, small terriers chase - but you argue that this breed of dog that was (when you trace its lineage [1]) originally bred to bring down bulls and be aggressive and fight can't possibly be aggressive because of its breed?

It's been recently reported that half of all of these XL Bully dogs in the UK are descended from a single dog called "Killer Kimbo" which itself was inbred [2] and its first and second generation offspring were responsible for killing a 4 year old child and a grown man respectively.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bully#History

2 - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/14/britains-xl-bull...

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#32

Post by brianjking »

brianjking wrote: post #19
bitcharmer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a few links if you've spent the last few years under a rock: Wikipedia page on fatal incidents in UK alone: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in... Two minutes worth of googling: Children: 5-month old and 2 year old https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tragic-pit-bull-attack-cla... 26 day old infant https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-mother-charged-pit-bull-m... 4 year old attacked, mom di…

So where is the statistical evidence that says this is due to any given breed? Correlation does not equal causation.

.

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#33

Post by jacquesm »

alyandon wrote: post #17
gongdzhauh wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this, but then I talked to a doctor friend and they explained that most of the dog bites they see in their hospital come from pit bulls with good owners. The dogs had never acted out in the past and were loving family dogs, until something snapped and out of seemingly nowhere the dog attacked someone. The statistics on dog bites in many countries are also pretty clear that some breeds, like pit bulls…

It'd probably be better to look at bite statistics normalized against the population size of a particular breed rather than "which breed causes more bites". Popularity of a particular breed can skew that statistic.

No, it wouldn't be better. Because besides a sepsis issue a Chihuahua biting me isn't going to worry me one bit whereas a Pitbull biting me would be a serious problem even if it had just flossed and brushed.

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#34

Post by iancmceachern »

brianjking wrote: post #19
bitcharmer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a few links if you've spent the last few years under a rock: Wikipedia page on fatal incidents in UK alone: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in... Two minutes worth of googling: Children: 5-month old and 2 year old https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tragic-pit-bull-attack-cla... 26 day old infant https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-mother-charged-pit-bull-m... 4 year old attacked, mom di…

So where is the statistical evidence that says this is due to any given breed? Correlation does not equal causation.

Here you go:

"Between 2013 and 2021, Pitbulls Were Involved in the Most Dog Bites in 20 States. In many states, pit bulls are responsible for almost half of all dog bite injuries."

"Research conducted in Harris County, Texas, also concluded that pit bull bite incidents were 213% more likely to be severe than other breeds."

https://worldanimalfoundation.org/dogs/pitbull-statistics/#:....

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#35

Post by iancmceachern »

mock-possum wrote: post #3

Small dogs are more aggressive, big dogs can do more damage. Ultimately, it’s a matter of training - how are they raised? - and a matter of the owner maintaining control. I really don’t believe in the whole “some breeds are inherently evil” thing.

"Between 2013 and 2021, Pitbulls Were Involved in the Most Dog Bites in 20 States. In many states, pit bulls are responsible for almost half of all dog bite injuries. Research conducted in Harris County, Texas, also concluded that pit bull bite incidents were 213% more likely to be severe than other breeds."

https://worldanimalfoundation.org/dogs/pitbull-statistics/#:....

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#36

Post by brianjking »

jacquesm wrote: post #33
alyandon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd probably be better to look at bite statistics normalized against the population size of a particular breed rather than "which breed causes more bites". Popularity of a particular breed can skew that statistic.

No, it wouldn't be better. Because besides a sepsis issue a Chihuahua biting me isn't going to worry me one bit whereas a Pitbull biting me would be a serious problem even if it had just flossed and brushed.

.

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#37

Post by w0z_ »

I find it odd so many people support pitbulls, they're obviously more socially driven with this opinion than job/task driven...

Pitbulls were originally bred for bull baiting and dog fighting.

Dogs have instinctual purpose. Social justice keyboard warriors will overlook this and think the common person can own a pitbull and they are a product of their environment... not nature.

lol

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#38

Post by alyandon »

jacquesm wrote: post #33
alyandon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd probably be better to look at bite statistics normalized against the population size of a particular breed rather than "which breed causes more bites". Popularity of a particular breed can skew that statistic.

No, it wouldn't be better. Because besides a sepsis issue a Chihuahua biting me isn't going to worry me one bit whereas a Pitbull biting me would be a serious problem even if it had just flossed and brushed.

I'm not arguing that a large dog bite vs a small dog bite is better or worse nor am I arguing that your opinion and risk tolerance is somehow invalid. I certainly wouldn't want to be bitten by any large breed dog.

I've personally never seen an aggressive pit bull but I've seen aggressive mixed breeds and german shepherds. I don't think it would be reasonable for me to conclude based on my observations that no pit bulls are vicious - and thus I'd rather look at actual data that has been normalized when judging the relative merit of one large dog breed vs another.

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#39

Post by aidenn0 »

Buttons840 wrote: post #9
mock-possum wrote: post #3

Small dogs are more aggressive, big dogs can do more damage. Ultimately, it’s a matter of training - how are they raised? - and a matter of the owner maintaining control. I really don’t believe in the whole “some breeds are inherently evil” thing.

Let's skip the emotionally charged words like "evil". Do you believe some breads are more likely (statistically speaking) to kill a human than others?

- I would wager that a Chihuahua is less likely to kill an adult human than a Bullmastiff, just because it is less capable of it.

- Many small dogs, in general, are poorly behaved because you can just pick them up and move them instead of having to train them.

- People also make sweeping statements about breeds like the American Pit-Bull Terrier when the variation within the breed is very large.

- If I'm an asshole who's going to train a dog to be aggressive I'm going to pick one that looks scary.

- Selective breeding within a breed can change temperament as well.

- Banning individual breeds is stupid whack-a-mole. People will just pivot to a different large-dog breed.

- If you want to make people not use dogs as weapons, about your only choice would be to ban dogs over a certain weight. This would almost certainly ban e.g. Bloodhounds (males commonly exceed 100lbs when at a healthy weight) though so isn't going to happen.

Re: American bully XL dogs to be banned, Sunak says

#40

Post by oh_come_on »

This is absolutely fantastic news. The pushback against it by people who say that this is the same thing as racism is ... more telling about those people's beliefs.

People are actually not the same as dogs who have been bred for aggression, and who have enormously outsized injury rates.

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