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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#371

Post by bluGill »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #355
bluGill wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not false. It is not true for all unions, but it is true for some. Management is NOT your enemy. This is probably the worst lie unions keep repeating. The best solutions are win-win. Yes management has different interests, but that doesn't make them an enemy.

Fundamentally, why do we work? We work for money. The employees want to make as much money as possible, the employer wants to make as much as possible. Management, representing capital, can make more money by paying their employees less. Therein lies the fundamental, unsolvable conflict between labor and management.

There are win win solutions to that conflict which makes it solvable.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#372

Post by OkayPhysicist »

bluGill wrote: post #371
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally, why do we work? We work for money. The employees want to make as much money as possible, the employer wants to make as much as possible. Management, representing capital, can make more money by paying their employees less. Therein lies the fundamental, unsolvable conflict between labor and management.

There are win win solutions to that conflict which makes it solvable.

By the company as a whole making more money, everyone can make more money. But no matter how much more money the company makes, capital and by extension management can make more money by paying the employees less.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#373

Post by sershe »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Unions work best in industries that have captive audience, that's why public sector, and public-sector-adjacent (e.g. infrastructure construction) unions are the ones that stick around more; no matter how bad they are, the taxpayers can't choose to shop around. Stuff either becomes more expensive (infrastructure), or worse with consumers holding the bag (public schools; consumers do shop around, but it doesn't matter much to the unions because taxpayers still pay).

Or ports are a good non-public example, it's hard to "disrupt" a port. To the extent that industry is competitive, unions would basically destroy their companies... Big 3 automakers are a great example.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#374

Post by sershe »

consz wrote: post #196

It’s absolutely incredible to me how much animosity unions have in the US and how self defeating the typical programmers attitude is (maybe this is just selection bias for HN?) — and I say this as someone who’s definitely not a laborer. But if I was one, I would hope I wouldn’t vote against my own class interests like it appears developers often do. Luckily, even speaking openly against my own interests here is zero…

Why is that incredible? I left a top level comment on why I hate unions [1], they create the worst set of incentives possible - they are exclusionary, anti-meritocratic, bureaucratic, anti-innovation... if I was to make a purely morality-based choice, without considering selfish consequences, I'd sooner join something less evil like a drug cartel.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37511944

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#375

Post by tourmalinetaco »

LtWorf wrote: post #291
tourmalinetaco wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reading comprehension is lacking. I’m saying programmers get paid well and have large opportunities, and that unions don’t serve a purpose. Care to enlighten me how programmers are some abused work force and need unions?

My reading comprehension is fine. You wrote an incorrect statement and I corrected you. > Care to enlighten me how programmers are some abused work force and need unions? Everybody who works for someone else does, not just programmers. And the expectation of working nights, do open source work to even be considered are all abuses that are happening.

I did not make an incorrect statement. I pointed out reality. Whether you accept reality or not is the question.

> Everybody who works for someone else does, not just programmers.

Speaking of incorrect statements.

> And the expectation of working nights, do open source work to even be considered are all abuses that are happening.

Those are not abuses. Working nights is part of the job, just like doctors and engineers. Don’t like it? Find a job at somewhere that doesn’t work nights. And contributing to open source is proof of your capabilities as a programmer in a real world environment. If you cannot do open source, you do not deserve to be hired.

These are at most minor inconveniences, and not something a union would even help you with.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#376

Post by MaysonL »

advisedwang wrote: post #367
nhumrich wrote: post #93

What about a union that spans companies something akin to the directors guild of america, whom almost all Hollywood creatives are apart of? I think it's purpose is very similar to how software engineers work on practice.

Labor law makes it difficult to achieve, sadly. The NLRA only provides for bargaining units within one employer. Unless you can get an industry wide coalition to voluntarily recognize your union, it is not happening.

Therefor, labor law needs to change, no?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#377

Post by [deleted] »

screye wrote: post #307
djha-skin wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I got cut from my company during the holidays in 2016. I had a job less than a month later and was double paid for some days while the severance overlap with the new job. 2. This one is interesting to me, but also might be mildly insulting to a laborer fighting for it because they actually get tired at the end of a day's work. On call is stressful, but it's first world stressful. Furthermore, you can usually do so…

A lot of these justifications sound like, " if you make enough money, you can't complain". Also,Yes, some people, some of the time don't need these protections. Switch it to an early in career person in a terrible economy and things become quite different. > mildly insulting to a laborer fighting for it because they actually get tired at the end of a day's work I dont understand this one > men really don't need much…

[deleted]

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#378

Post by dartos »

adrianovaroli wrote: post #365
dartos wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically in the software development field, a good engineer increases the productivity of all other engineers in a way that allows engineers to increase the productivity of each other in a compounding way. A “10x” engineer is worth a compounding amount more than their peers. I don’t think that holds for every field.

Jorge Luis Borges colleagues at the National Library forced him to go slower because he could catalogue books in a fraction of the time they needed. So yeah, if you're an absolute genius, you don't need a union. Everybody else does. Your common people colleagues do.

Yeah, that’s the trade off with many collectivist ideas.

They optimize for equality, which necessarily hurts the highest performers (in one way or another) and benefits the lower ones (in many ways)

Like anything, it’s a trade off

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#379

Post by advisedwang »

MaysonL wrote: post #376
advisedwang wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labor law makes it difficult to achieve, sadly. The NLRA only provides for bargaining units within one employer. Unless you can get an industry wide coalition to voluntarily recognize your union, it is not happening.

Therefor, labor law needs to change, no?

It's hard to envision such a drastic (and labor friendly) change passing in a climate where the much milder PRO Act couldn't get passed when an allegedly labor friendly party and leader controlled both houses and the presidency.

The path to winning such changes - whether through changing the law with the political process or simply forcing employers to bargain with industry wide strikes - requires much more powerful labor movement. The path to that is simply to build whatever power is possible. Right now the labor movement just trying to get organizing and union membership on the upswing, and I think that's the necessary step from where we are today.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#380

Post by LtWorf »

tourmalinetaco wrote: post #375
LtWorf wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reading comprehension is fine. You wrote an incorrect statement and I corrected you. > Care to enlighten me how programmers are some abused work force and need unions? Everybody who works for someone else does, not just programmers. And the expectation of working nights, do open source work to even be considered are all abuses that are happening.

I did not make an incorrect statement. I pointed out reality. Whether you accept reality or not is the question. > Everybody who works for someone else does, not just programmers. Speaking of incorrect statements. > And the expectation of working nights, do open source work to even be considered are all abuses that are happening. Those are not abuses. Working nights is part of the job, just like doctors and engineers…

> Speaking of incorrect statements.

Correctness and being liked by you aren't the same concept.

Also "reality" as you called it, is just your own political opinion.

A union would help with getting fairly compensated for working nights, instead of "see you at 8.30am tomorrow".

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