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‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#121

Post by lenkite »

legutierr wrote: post #54
boppo1 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> intervention We used to call this war. Is Russia just ‘intervening’ in Ukraine right now?

If Lybian forces were on the verge of committing war crimes and killing thousands, then "intervention" would be an appropriate word to describe what the Western powers did. They "intervened" to prevent an imminent atrocity, if you believe them. And I am inclined to believe them, not because of what Western governments have said, but because the whole Arab Spring played out in real time on social media. I agree that w…

> But he was killed by Libyans, who were angry about the Libyans that Gaddafi himself had killed.

Sorry, I suggest you dig deeper. He was killed by Misrata fighters who were directly NATO sponsored and equipped. There were lots of articles on how NATO supported Misrata at the time.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#122

Post by lenkite »

PedroBatista wrote: post #9
totetsu wrote: post #2

When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. If the "alternate reality" didn't already erased it, you may recall something called "Arab Spring". It's not like Gaddafi was in a stable position at the time, and even less likely he would skate the whole situation until today. Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the reb…

Why don't we talk about how Obama's "moderate rebels" in Syria metasized into ISIS with full U.S equipment. After in-effectiveness in Syria against battle hardened Assad forces, they decided to go for Mosul and the soft Iraqi forces instead. Believe there was even an interview with the ISIS soldiers where they were very happy with the U.S. sponsorship!

The same story was repeated earlier with Bin Laden. It is like the U.S. never learns. Now once again in 2022/23 the Idlib mujahideen are being courted by the U.S. war apparatus to make problems in Syria as a way to divert Russia.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#123

Post by marcosdumay »

mymac wrote: post #66
hnbad wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a dead comment here about how it was "actually a dam collapse, not a flood" and how no news source is reporting on that. From what I can gather, at a glance, at least the AP, The Guardian and Al Jazeera all state that the flood was the result of two dams collapsing and the cause of the collapse was the storm. Even the article itself states that the two dams were poorly maintained and the collapse is the resul…

Root cause analysis is complex for a reason. Separating out contributing causes from root causes is difficult and sometimes even impossible. Would this dam have failed eventually? Probably yes, on a long enough time-scale. Would it have failed now if not for that storm? Probably no. Note that even in the developed West there are plenty of pieces of infrastructure at risk because of climate driven extremities.

Would it have failed if it was properly maintained?

I bet somebody knows this. And that is the question that imposes culpability, not the ones you asked.

But if you are not going for culpability and just assumes everybody is honestly trying to improve, the question to ask is "was it properly maintained?"

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#124

Post by lenkite »

PedroBatista wrote: post #9
totetsu wrote: post #2

When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?

The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. If the "alternate reality" didn't already erased it, you may recall something called "Arab Spring". It's not like Gaddafi was in a stable position at the time, and even less likely he would skate the whole situation until today. Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the reb…

> The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi.

Of-course they did! If you recall, there was even an offer made by Gadaffi and his sons for holding elections and a step-down if he lost. They even agreed to international observers for elections!

Every single concession was rejected by NATO as a "ploy". They wanted Gaddaffi dead.

Got the article: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2011/6/16/gaddafi-son-offers-... but there were also several other concessions offered - all of which were singularly dismissed. The Libyan friends I used to know a decade ago weeped after Gadaffi died.

A nation state in the middle east that used to offer free education for both sexes and free medical care is now dust and ashes - all thanks to NATO.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#125

Post by marcosdumay »

themgt wrote: post #21
PedroBatista wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. If the "alternate reality" didn't already erased it, you may recall something called "Arab Spring". It's not like Gaddafi was in a stable position at the time, and even less likely he would skate the whole situation until today. Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the reb…

The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. Right. "We came, we saw, he died! [lol]" Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the rebellion in Benghazi and enforced a no-fly zone otherwise Gaddafi's planes would obliterate the rebel forces and the civilians living in those cities This is just revisionist nonsense. There…

When a government orders their military to openly kill protesters, it's perfectly reasonable to call that a "civil war" (even though I prefer the term "genocide"). And honestly, that makes the government heads free target for anybody willing to intervene.

You won't get any sympathy for that opinion.

Other US military interventions have varying levels of righteousness, but this one is a pretty clear-cut case.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#127

Post by orwin »

boppo1 wrote: post #39
orwin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For accuracy's sake (i can't find the Atlantic article talking about it, and i'm not bored enough to spend my day going through Wikileaks, so right now the source is trustmebro, i hope that someone have the documents/article in favorite), thanks to Hilary's leaked emails, we know that Obama's administration wasn't keen on going in Libya, and only Sarkozy(France) and Cameron(UK) insistence on attacking decided the US…

How did France compel the US about anything?

For Libya, mostly by giving fake intel to the UN (and by extension to the US), George W Bush 'WMD' style (though it was a bit more compelling). I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if the UK was aware of it or if the Mi6/SIS was fooled.

For Syria, Obama made threats to try to prevent the use of chemical weapons. The UK wanted to avoid another Libya, the other EU countries aren't warmongers, Turkey wouldn't have said anything, so only France did the 'actually, they used chemical weapons, and the US is not alone if you go so you won't have another Iraq!'.

I don't know what happened to Hollande, why he grew a pair suddenly, but I don't think we ever had a president who didn't stir shit at least once in 70 years.

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#128

Post by hellothere1337 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #111
hellothere1337 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I insinuate about astroturfing mate?

In your now-deleted comment, which had already been flagged when I wrote the above.

[flagged]

Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k

#129

Post by sokoloff »

mrguyorama wrote: post #72
csomar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I visited the US, the TSA still exists. Pretty sure the effects have remained. Not sure about the "unifying force" fantasy though.

9/11 didn't unify the USA, it was used as a cudgel to beat any defectors into submission.

I was in the US on Thursday September 6th and Thursday September 13th.

From everything I observed in the days and weeks following, there was a massive increase in feelings and expressions of unity. (These were also temporary.)

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