When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?
The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. If the "alternate reality" didn't already erased it, you may recall something called "Arab Spring". It's not like Gaddafi was in a stable position at the time, and even less likely he would skate the whole situation until today. Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the reb…
‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
81–90 of 176 posts
Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#82Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
> intervention We used to call this war. Is Russia just ‘intervening’ in Ukraine right now?
We didn’t use to call it war, so you’re wrong about that. We used the term “intervention” to describe limited military action. Countries throughout history have conducted interventions as opposed to full-scale war. Russia’s assault on Ukraine isn’t an intervention and is instead a war and we know this because of the size and scale of the operation but also the intentions of the operation, which, are to take over the…
Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#84Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#85Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. Gaddafi would have died sooner or later anyway, and he was a kleptocrat like all other dictators were and are. > but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore? What would be needed is an intervention force t…
Gaddafi was bad but his regime did manage to make Libya one of the most developed countries of the region before Western sanctions eventually hit, and they did that without borrowing any money abroad thanks to their oil reserves. > the French are even more reviled than Islamists are in Africa That is pure propaganda BS.
Is it? Yes, a lot of what led to the recent putsches was Russian propaganda, but "Françafrique" has been collapsing for years now - understandably, given that France's attitude towards Africa hasn't been positive in any kind, it was mostly "we're happy to support whatever dictator is in charge as long as we get cheap natural resources".
France especially, but also the rest of the old European empires, never really managed to properly heal its relationship with its former colonies, and now it's biting us in our collective arses as these nations re-orient themselves to Russia and China.
Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#87In Crete currently, just across the sea some 300km away. We had a brush of storm Daniel, just a week of high wind and occasional rain. Nothing like what poured down there. There are probably hundreds of bodies swimming in the sea right now just south from me. Sad, crazy, and probably a glimpse of new normal, as usually the poorest are most hit.
> It brought more than 16 inches (414 mm) of rainfall in 24 hours to Al-Bayda, a city west of Derna, a new record.
This is the top end of the distribution shifting; a powerful storm powered by warm water that would have been nearly impossible without all the heat our extra CO2 has trapped and has been absorbed by the ocean. It's definitely a consequence of climate change, and it will get more frequent and worse.
Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#88The Derna dam collapses, even with only partial death reports is already the second deadliest recorded dam failure, and is close on the lower-end range of death estimates for the worst, the 1975 Banqiao Dam failure in China, following another weather catastrophe, Typhoon Nina.
(If memory serves, Nina both stalled out over the Banqiao region and intersected with a more northerly cold front, creating a deluge effect similar to that of Superstorm Sandy over New York and New England, where warm tropical moisture was wrung from the atmosphere as it intersected colder air. In Nina's case, over a meter of rain fell within 24 hours.)
Dams are deceptively complex structures which appear simple, and can be built with relatively simple technology and persist for long periods of time with little ongoing maintenance and administration ... until they cannot. Most especially, dams are especially prone to governmental dysfunction in oversight, regulation, maintenance, and emergency planning. That last should include planning, risk assessment, risk mitigating, public education about risks and procedures, warning systems, crisis communications (between dam operators and government, and dam operators and downstream communities), disaster drills, and training in rescue, recovery, and relief operations.
Libya, a failing state divided by conflict, and for over forty years an autocratic dictatorship under a single ruler, lacks autonomous, independent, capable, and effective institutions for operating such infrastructure. It's all but certainly not the only such region.
Even what are considered to be rich and well-functioning democratic states see dam failures, or near failures. The near-failure of the Oroville Dam in California in 2017 followed mismanagement by the state water authority. The actual failures of the Edensville and Sanford Dams in Michigan in 2020 followed years of mismanagement by a private owner and ineffective regulation by the Michigan Deparment of Environment, Great Lakes, and Energy. In that case, property was damaged but no lives lost. Lake Dunlap in Texas suffered a spillway failure in 2019, again with ineffective management and regulation by this time by the Guadalupe-Blanco River Authority, though again without loss of life.
One of the highest-risk dams in the United States is Isabella Dam, on the Kern River upstream of Bakersfield, CA. The topography somewhat resembles the images I've seen of Derna: a mountainous upstream terrain, narrow canyon, and a city lying directly in the floodplain of both the river and any potential dam collapse.
The problem presented by such dams with ongoing climate change is that all the factors involved compound:
- Climate change increases risks of extreme weather events, including Mediterranean-basin cyclonic storms as with Daniel.
- Climate-related stresses, including reduced crops and increased food prices, stress already-straining marginal states. The Arab Spring protests which ended up toppling Qaddafi's Libyan regime have been blamed in part on food stress from reduced harvests and increased food prices.
- Governmental corruption and ineffectiveness raise all potential disaster threats. What would be a modest property-related disaster with preparation, warning, evacuation, and response becomes a mass fatality event where one or more element is missing.
- Decreased liberal freedoms also tend to restrain technical concerns and criticisms. This was certainly the case at Banqiao, seems to be the case in Derna, and can be seen in other recent catastrophes such as the 2020 Beirut ammonium nitrate explosion (which also exhibited several other factors mentioned here).
A core problem with disaster and risk planning is that often contributing factors which are treated as independent turn out to be strongly correlated and interrelated. I believe we're seeing that again here.
Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#89When ever I see something like this I can’t help but wonder if it would have happened if EU and America hadn’t assassinated Gaddafi. I know that’s kind of a knee jerk reaction, but really what is happening in lybia now? What’s the plan? Protect the oil pipelines and just don’t look too close anymore?
The "EU and America" didn't assassinate Gaddafi. If the "alternate reality" didn't already erased it, you may recall something called "Arab Spring". It's not like Gaddafi was in a stable position at the time, and even less likely he would skate the whole situation until today. Gaddafi was "assassinated" because there was a full-on civil war and the EU and America bombed the massive convoy he had sent to crush the reb…
[1] https://www.npr.org/2012/01/05/144637499/bahrain-the-revolut...
Re: ‘Sea is constantly dumping bodies’: fears Libya flood death toll may hit 20k
#90[flagged]
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