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Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

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Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#121

Post by AceJohnny2 »

gmjosack wrote: post #65
readyplayernull wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might have well devised the first of its kind "ransom by installations" in the history of software, by making it possible for attackers to fake mass installations and get gamedevs into fatal debts. And they are taking the executioner role.

We've been calling it "Install Bombing" after the common abusive practice of review bombing. Unity claims they have anti-fraud systems in place and you can always appeal with their fraud team but I don't have an reason to blindly trust a black box that when fails makes Unity more money and puts the burden on me to prove otherwise.

> and you can always appeal with their fraud team

ROFL

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#122

Post by lolinder »

IANAL, but I suspect part of what they're trying to hide is that the old terms [0] specify that while they can change the terms at any time, you may opt to use the old terms as long as you don't update the software beyond the current year (2023.x).

That wording is changed in the new terms [1] to say "If the modified Terms are not acceptable to you, your only recourse is to cease using the Services." Just in case you were wondering how one-sided this new agreement is intended to be.

[0] Section 8, "Modifications": https://web.archive.org/web/20201111183311/https://github.co...

[1] https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#123

Post by snvzz »

tagawa wrote: post #12
sn41 wrote: post #8

Just a side thought related to this: can there be a community supported initiative to parse what TOS documents of different companies mean, and specifically, what to watch out for in each company's TOS vis-a-vis what is the norm in a certain industry? Right now, the "gotcha" power is entirely one-sided. A wiki-like approach towards documenting TOS might make the user better aware of what to really watch out for when…

I think what you're looking for is TOSDR (Terms of Service, Didn't Read): https://tosdr.org It's been going for several years and has very thorough analyses of various ToS, done by volunteers who are often legal professionals.

Love how it shows Unity's rating going down[0] with every change.

They seem to have attempted the "boiling the frog" strategy.

0. https://edit.tosdr.org/services/2768

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#124

Post by justinclift »

noduerme wrote: post #117

Adobe put a silent kill switch into Flash player, rendering 10 years worth of casual games I'd written immediately unplayable. As a result of Adobe's actions, a whole sector of lone devs and small teams turned to Unity to build games that would've otherwise been built in AS3. I'm glad I didn't end up going that route, but I really feel for the folks who are now getting screwed again.

What was the silent kill switch?

Was it a time based thing that applies to everyone or something?

Asking because a friend is playing a lot of ancient flash games recently using Ruffle (OSS flash player written in Rust), and doesn't seem to be having problems like that.

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#125

Post by snvzz »

akkartik wrote: post #62
zeroimpl wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deleting things never makes a sound. The word silently is added entirely for the connotation that it was meant to be secret. Since such an action would never go unnoticed, it's obvious that it wasn't meant to be secret, so that word is clearly misplaced. If the author wanted to imply it was bad, they should just come out and say it, with a word like despicably.

Here's the blog post where they announced they were creating a github repo: https://blog.unity.com/community/updated-terms-of-service-an... It's the easiest thing in the world to write another blog post announcing they're deleting the github repo.

https://archive.ph/LZRFz

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#126

Post by Gembobo »

When I've made enough money, I would like to retire and just develop a free-2-play game. No intention of it making any money. I would happily pay a few thousand dollars for a good engine for that - like Unity. But I would not want to take the risk that my free game becomes wildly successful and suddenly costs me millions. It is very unfortunate, but I will now spend the weekend to learn Godot.

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#127

Post by lucb1e »

gmjosack wrote: post #48

This video[1] talks a bit about this from a lawyer's point of view and is a really good overview. For people who are not paying as much attention to this I'd like to summarize the main points of frustration. 1. Unity has just shown they believe they are able, and they are willing, to change the terms on what you have to pay them. What are the bounds to terms like this? What if Unity is tight on money and decide to sq…

Not sure why I watched the whole hour's worth of content as I'm not involved tbh, but what I gather is that the whole speech amounts to, in essence, "yes it's legal (unless you want to appeal to empathy from a court); however, Unity is saying that they'll tell you how much you owe them and you have no way of verifying it, so with these one-sided changes blemishing trust while simultaneously asking for your trust in their estimations on how much you owe them... tread carefully"

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#128

Post by matkoniecz »

agar wrote: post #106

An under-discussed aspect of this pricing structure is the number of older games that will simply be pulled from the (virtual) shelves. I've already seen a few and I fear more devs will follow suit. The ripples and unintended consequences of this move could really be significant for years.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37518453

they can continue using old terms of service if they do not upgrade

Unity is trying to hide this.

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#129

Post by mwill »

lolinder wrote: post #119
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This retroactive stuff is insane and I cannot figure out how a company can make that type of move if they care about their users. I can't even understand how it can possibly be legal. How on earth is it even possible to say "your game which was released before we updated this license is subject to the updated version"? IANAL but that sure seems like something which would require both parties to agree to the updated…

The old Terms of Service have the usual clause that says that the company can change the terms at any time. However, the terms do provide that if you don't update Unity then you can continue to use the old terms. Unity obviously doesn't point that out in the blog or FAQ. > Unity may update these Unity Software Additional Terms at any time for any reason and without notice (the “Updated Terms”) and those Updated Terms…

Worth noting that this clause was removed early this year, whats interesting is you can see it under previous terms on the unity site, which indicate it was replace on October 13, 2022, linking to the new terms (that don't have this clause), implying that this clause was removed nearly a year ago...

However, the clause was still in the October 2022 terms, and was still there in March 2023 [2], and was actually removed in April this year...

It's likely just an oversight, but it does feel pretty dishonest in the face of removing the github repo, its the difference between "that clause has been gone for a year" and "that clause was removed less than 6 months ago"

[1] https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service/software-legacy

[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20230303043022/https://unity.com...

Re: Unity has seemingly silently removed its GitHub repo that tracks ToS changes

#130

Post by harles »

lolinder wrote: post #122

IANAL, but I suspect part of what they're trying to hide is that the old terms [0] specify that while they can change the terms at any time, you may opt to use the old terms as long as you don't update the software beyond the current year (2023.x). That wording is changed in the new terms [1] to say "If the modified Terms are not acceptable to you, your only recourse is to cease using the Services." Just in case you…

That was my understanding. They did it (or least claim to have made the change, maybe they left in a loop hole) in response to the Spatial OS debacle. They tried to crush competition in their ecosystem through retroactive TOS changes that time too. Some of the community got rightfully up in arms about it, so they reversed and added these long term licenses. But it seems like that was all just lip service, because here we are right back where we were.

Overview of the Spatial OS stuff for those that didn’t follow it: https://www.engadget.com/2019-01-10-unity-improbable-epic-ga...

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