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The Tyranny of the Marginal User

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Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think this is the missing part. Even if enshittification is more profitable, people should still be able to just change services to a better one.

Change to what? Another match.com-owned service?

Yeah that's the part I haven't figured out. Why isn't there a offering for the market demand for something like old OKCupid? A dating site doesn't seem like an enterprise that needs a lot of startup capital or anything.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#432

I worked at OkCupid from 2013-2017 and totally resonate with the author that mid-2010s OkCupid was a really special product, and that it took a steep decline as the decade went on. It's not entirely fair to say that the Match acquisition immediately caused that decline; I started a couple years after Match got the company in its hands, and only two of the original founders were still focused on OkCupid full time. But…

A somewhat natural conclusion is that mobile killed the thoughtful internet. Ouch.

I find I comment and write much less on mobile than on a computer, because the writing experience on mobile is still very sub-par.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#433
post #418
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because 1 is not one of the axioms. The axioms are 1) There is a range of experience between worst possible misery and best possible happiness and 2) more people who are just barely happy is better than fewer people who are much happier. I don't understand why you're insisting on a binary distinction of acceptable vs. not acceptable. With that assumption there is no repugnant conclusion.

1 is one of the axioms because a binary cutoff is built into the premise.

I may have taken you a little too literally when you wrote that you didn't understand the problem. Perhaps what you're saying is that the conclusion is not repugnant to you and that the conclusion is neither counterintuitive nor ethically problematic.

Consequently you believe that it is better for a large number of people to exist in a state barely better than misery than for a smaller number of people to experience a greater degree of happiness.

Fair enough.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#434

I worked at OkCupid from 2013-2017 and totally resonate with the author that mid-2010s OkCupid was a really special product, and that it took a steep decline as the decade went on. It's not entirely fair to say that the Match acquisition immediately caused that decline; I started a couple years after Match got the company in its hands, and only two of the original founders were still focused on OkCupid full time. But…

I would pay $100/month for a site like the original okcupid, but I want Max Krohn, Christian Rudder and the rest of the original team running it.

you're in luck! OKCupid costs ~$44 a month, and you can add on "read receipts" for about $0.50 each, superboosts for $1-$3 each, the privacy (hidden) profile for $10/month. with some creativity you can have 0 real matches for ~$100!

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#435

I worked at OkCupid from 2013-2017 and totally resonate with the author that mid-2010s OkCupid was a really special product, and that it took a steep decline as the decade went on. It's not entirely fair to say that the Match acquisition immediately caused that decline; I started a couple years after Match got the company in its hands, and only two of the original founders were still focused on OkCupid full time. But…

A somewhat natural conclusion is that mobile killed the thoughtful internet. Ouch.

Mobile onboarded a different demographic of user. Pre-mobile, not many people really used computers or the internet outside of work or gaming. I grew up in a poor part of the US and lots of people did not have desktop computers at home; most kids begged their parents for access to computers for gaming. Parents in our area could never figure me out. I liked using computers (I would dumpster dive for parts since as a poor kid, I had much more time than money) but I didn't game much, and I'm a kid so I'm definitely not doing work. (I learned to code as a kid because I wanted to make games and then I found the coding part much more fun than the gaming part.) My parents were flummoxed how a kid who liked spending so much time reading was also so weird about wanting to use something as expensive as a computer.

That's the root of this blog post, the rise of Tinder, and the big shift to mobile in general. Nerds aren't the only people on the internet anymore. The average person is now on the internet. OKCupid was very much the dating site of us thoughtful nerds, those who thought text and personality tests would help them find a better match. Most singles in the West at the time just went to the bar, got intoxicated, then made base conversation with whomever engaged their base interests. That demographic moved to Tinder.

Unless you're specifically targeting a nerd-heavy demographic (e.g. academics, devs, hackers, etc) with a high margin product, if the goal is to create a mass appeal product then making nerds happy just isn't profitable. We're too small in number and too picky.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on why you think reddit is pushing out the weirdness? I don't think it's a zero sum game, you can have both normies and weirdos in entirely separate subreddits.

Yeah, but what's the point of hosting them? Like what do you sell on r/dragonsfuckingcars? (no, I'm not joking) And what does the existence of such a place at all mean to a prospective advertiser? Imagine a viral picture of your ad next to one of those posts. But okay, let's ignore porn. How about subreddits that deal with subjects like depression, gender issues, politics, etc? What do you sell to those? Maybe a book…

How did advertisers become such puritans? Playboy magazine carried ads for normal products just fine. Every newspaper deals with "depression, gender issues, politics" and they somehow survived trough most of their history on advertising revenue.

Surely there should be marketers that see "Imagine a viral picture of your ad next to one of those posts." and realize that everything apart from "Imagine a viral picture of your ad" is often irrelevant.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As did I! OkCupid was a shining star of a product that treated its users with respect and provided a really valuable service. I didn't realize that it's no longer. I feel old pining for the internet of yesteryear. As is obvious only in retrospect, you don't realize when the golden years are!

Anybody else remember the data blog posts? Those were interesting and satisfying. It was another confirmation that I'd found the right dating site and probably a like-minded userbase.

Particularly the one that was a tare-down of why paid dating sites like match.com where a mug's game for almost everyone. That somehow went AWOL fairly soon after the match.com take-over…

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#438

"How is it possible that software gets worse, not better, over time, despite billions of dollars of R&D and rapid progress in tooling and AI? What evil force, more powerful than Innovation and Progress, is at work here?" I once asked someone this question and he replied with a single word. "Greed", he said. I wanted the opinion of someone who was not biased, i.e., who did not believe, AKAIK, that, as stated by the au…

The software in question only gets worse for you, the audience, not the people running it. For them, it gets better as it brings in more profits.

(Another reason why free software is essential.)

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#439

> We’ve all been Marl at one time or another This, to me, is the key line in this quite good article. It's not that software companies are catering to those other people who are infinitely stupid and deserving of our scorn. It's that they are catering to the worse impulses in all of us and encouraging us to become those people.

There are stupid people. A large percentage of the population never regularly used PCs because keyboards and mice are too abstract. They only began regularly computing once they could touch things with their fingers. Today, Google search has more fuzzing and returns more Q&A results on mobile.

A large percentage never used e-mail because e-mail addresses are too abstract. They only began using "social media" when they could address correspondence by photograph.

There are a billion people who can speak but not read and write, and billions who can read and write but not well enough to earn karma on Hacker News.

Though smart people are sometimes Marl, they are Marl less often, or in more sophisticated ways (like wasting time on Hacker News).

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why can't I rip apart the UI of an app I use every day and rearrange it the way I want?" Because it is very hard to do something like this, so common people can do it. (you can change every html UI in theory) I tried to make something like this and basically failed (though in the very long run I might get there eventually). GUI editors are hard to get right and the ones I liked, like Adobe Flex Builder (with Flash U…

The typical Old School Unix way to do this is to provide all of your application's functionality and business logic through a command line app or at least an API, with the UI being a thin layer on top of the command line. Then anyone can build whatever UI they want on top of it. We've fallen from the light and now the prevailing design is to deeply integrate the business logic with the UI to the point where they are…

as sibling commented, i look at the Automatic-1111 stable diffusion "webui" as being exactly like you describe, where the "default" service is built in, but the API seems relatively straightforward enough that people have build electron apps and android apps that can talk directly to the python service behind. one of these days i'll actually code a useful mobile UI for my servers. Until then, the reflowing webUI works "ok enough" on mobile.

another one that i'd like to think has an open enough API is mastodon/fediverse, assuming they actually adhere to the activitypub spec, it should (should) be relatively straightforward to write a UI on top of the API. And it seems ok, there's quite a number of mastodon "apps", but less for stuff like misskey or pleroma.

I'm sure there are other contemporaneous examples, but suffice to say that some developers still care about this, today!

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