Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Tyranny of the Marginal User

nothinghuman.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

311–320 of 840 posts

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#311

Post by apetresc »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #309
mrshoe wrote: post #258

The real problem is industry-wide adoption of metrics-driven design. When I studied cognitive science, the method we employed for HCI was User Centered System Design. Granted, this was a backronym for UCSD, but the point remains — design should be user-centered, not metrics-driven. When I launch Netflix, it is abundantly clear to me that their design is driven by their metrics. What I want to see at the top is my “co…

> Their metrics prove to them that getting me hooked on new shows will increase my engagement and increase the amount of time I spend in their app. Guess what? As a user, those are not my goals! But here's what I find odd about Netflix. Up until extremely recently—and even now for most customers—Netflix did not and does not display ads. Netflix makes money from subscription fees, which means they get the same amount…

Indeed, given the relatively high cost of streaming high-quality video, you'd think Netflix makes substantially more money from the 0-hour viewer compared to the 100-hour viewer.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#312

Post by darkerside »

The problem is not metrics driven design or marginal users. It's that OKCupid wasn't successful, and that it probably can't be. So far, there isn't a tool that has successfully matched up looking term romantic partners with a high degree of success. That work has to come from people, and they don't get as much leverage from tools as they hoped. That's why the successful apps make it a numbers game and leave it to people to solve the actual problem of matchmaking.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#313

Post by JoeAltmaier »

All true. But it isn't the Marginal User (Marl) that's the issue.

It's the dev managers that pursue him. In the quest for quarterly metrics.

Building a use base of interested committed users is not done that way. It's done by providing value, having short training videos, getting word-of-mouth referrals, continuing to provide value month after month.

Ok that isn't maybe as profitable. In a big company the pressure for profitable is perhaps even more grinding and inhumane than in a smaller company. At some point your entire product gets reduced to a number at some executive level, and your fate is inevitably sealed by metrics.

In a small company, a startup even, management is 1 level deep or shallower and you can have goal, ambitions, a vision of your product and your user that exceeds "show them another ad". And you can communicate that to whomever is budgeting your group.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#314

Post by revscat »

apetresc wrote: post #311
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their metrics prove to them that getting me hooked on new shows will increase my engagement and increase the amount of time I spend in their app. Guess what? As a user, those are not my goals! But here's what I find odd about Netflix. Up until extremely recently—and even now for most customers—Netflix did not and does not display ads. Netflix makes money from subscription fees, which means they get the same amount…

Indeed, given the relatively high cost of streaming high-quality video, you'd think Netflix makes substantially more money from the 0-hour viewer compared to the 100-hour viewer.

Unless they’re selling user data.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#315

Post by hutzlibu »

freedomben wrote: post #6

> Here’s what I’ve been able to piece together about the marginal user. Let’s call him Marl. The first thing you need to know about Marl is that he has the attention span of a goldfish on acid. Once Marl opens your app, you have about 1.3 seconds to catch his attention with a shiny image or triggering headline, otherwise he’ll swipe back to TikTok and never open your app again. This is hilarious and sad because it fe…

"Damnit Marl, please for the sake of us power user minority, please change."

But are you really that different? There are just too many websites amd apps and new ones are getting generated every moment and time and attention is limited. So I also open and quickly close many of them.

I don't think that is the problem here.

But to your conclusion I agree.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#316

Post by bsenftner »

seizethecheese wrote: post #281
efitz wrote: post #31

The article doesn’t mention a number of contributing problems such as monopoly power. I want to highlight growth as such a problem. Perhaps Ycombinator is the wrong place to bring up such a point, but the idea of constant growth in user base as the source of value in a company almost certainly contributes significantly to the problems discussed in the article. What happened to community? The businesses I like to deal…

> the idea of constant growth in user base as the source of value in a company This is a straw man. The primary source of value is the future cash flow. Since a long future is considered, growth is highly prized. I consider this a major achievement of mankind, to be able to value the future, today. Without this reasoning, financing for new businesses would cease to exist.

That's a good point. I think you're referencing a Present Value calculation? My big issue with a lot of valuation techniques is they are based on exponential growth. That strikes me as overly optimistic, leading to decisions that overlook profitable businesses that do not grow exponentially.

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#317

Post by intended »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #287
szundi wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to point out that whatever you could make helping your clients happily leave you forever, you can make 5x that making them suffer. It is simple math.

This is not a convincing argument. If a dating site can't get people to match, they're likely to stop using it, just like any other product/service you pay for that doesn't work.

Casinos are very profitable.

A casino with no physical upkeep ?

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#319

Post by tick_tock_tick »

nequo wrote: post #230
bad_user wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growth means prosperity. Also, the idea that the economy requires growth is BS, it's just that economic stagnation or recession currently means some people are going to be starving. And if you actually look at the world, with its still growing population in some countries, or an aging population in others, it's pretty clear why people starve when growth stops, and it has nothing to do with capitalism, or The Man.

Japan hasn’t had much GDP growth since 1990. You could say that its economy is stagnating. Yet starvation is hardly a defining phenomenon for its population. They have one of the highest life expectancies. Healthcare is widely available. Technological progress did not stop. And wealth inequality in this economy is among the lowest in the world.

> Yet starvation is hardly a defining phenomenon for its population.

Isn't malnutrition a huge issue in Japan? That and massive increases in poverty especially for the elderly?

Re: The Tyranny of the Marginal User

#320

Post by iaaan »

mrshoe wrote: post #258

The real problem is industry-wide adoption of metrics-driven design. When I studied cognitive science, the method we employed for HCI was User Centered System Design. Granted, this was a backronym for UCSD, but the point remains — design should be user-centered, not metrics-driven. When I launch Netflix, it is abundantly clear to me that their design is driven by their metrics. What I want to see at the top is my “co…

Notably, Plex (a free media server) also displays "continue watching" stuff at the top.
Post reply on HN