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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#231

Post by orwin »

piva00 wrote: post #14
aknfxb3m wrote: post #4

In my country we had mandated unions for tech workers in various states. I paid the compulsory annual fee plus an additional fee that I didn't understand and can't properly explain what it was for. Not once in 23 years in IT have they done anything for me. Not a single time. Every time we pushed for raises and someone contacted the union, nothing came back. When the company was not updating our salaries against infla…

From what you described it sounds very, very similar to my experience with unions in Brazil. The ones for IT specifically, they all suck and that system is definitely not how unions should work... For some reason I always felt those IT unions in Brazil were not actually run by any worker but by cadres from the employers. On the other hand, unions here in Sweden are definitely worth being part of, they have your back…

I might be misinformed here, but aren't unions part of the board for LLCs in Sweden? Or is it in Germany? (which, I mean, if you want limited liability, it's a good idea to have real oversight).

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#232

Post by giantg2 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #92
giantg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that they are typically salaried, I wonder what the hour adjusted pay is? The median for a dev in the US is $110k, and many of those jobs fall in higher than average cost of living areas. It's possible that people in the industry want better working conditions or more equal/open pay systems, not just more money. Better hiring practices could be nice too.

The median software developer job is not in a high-cost area. $110k is less than what the median software developer is paid in e.g. Omaha, Nebraska, where the median house price is $275k. In the US, software developers are highly compensated by local standards almost regardless of where they live. That was not always the case decades ago but it is today.

Any numbers to back you up? (Other than your one cherry picked city)

If you look at the top 10 states for software jobs, you will see that they fall in the higher end of the distribution for cost of living.

Even looking at your cheery picked example, we see the salary and cost of living track roughly - median dev salary is about $95k based on multiple sources and COL is about 7% lower than the national average.

Yes, devs do tend to fall on the higher side of a local median than others. Hence my point about unions not being just for more money.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#233

Post by zaphar »

lapcat wrote: post #184
zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

Right now if I don't like the working conditions I leave for a place that has better conditions. I've never had to take a long unpaid break because I don't stick around long enough to burn out. I've done exactly this multiple times. I think most people could do this. I don't know why more of them don't. If they did working conditions would be across the board better.

I don't think burnout is caused by companies most of the time. It's caused by the employee not taking care of themself. Will a manager abuse someones willingness to not leverage the power they have? Sure. Some managers are awful. They'll continue to be awful when the Union is in place. Just in a different way. You'll still be miserable under that manager. The solution is to make a plan to leave and start executing on it. The moment you make the plan you'll feel better.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#234

Post by nonethewiser »

runako wrote: post #86
_aavaa_ wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By contrast, the recent headlines about UPS drivers making $170k are for drivers with 5+ years of tenure. They do not make 170k, that was a puff piece from UPS. That number was total compensation + monetary value of all benefits. Which not the way most people/postings talk about compensation.

> Which not the way most people/postings talk about compensation. This is a tech site. People in tech routinely include the value of e.g. RSUs in compensation numbers. Point taken, but a) it's not too far afield from how tech comp is discussed and b) even if you back out the non-cash components, the drivers still make a lot of money. (Possibly more even than the median US software developer.)

It includes health insurance premiums and stuff paid by the employer. No one uses that for TC.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#235

Post by nonethewiser »

lapcat wrote: post #75
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. No, thi…

> Note that all professional sports have unions for athletes.

Terrible example though because professional sports leagues are monopolies.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#236

Post by djha-skin »

screye wrote: post #207

American scale and polarization make it impossible to have moderate conversations around social tools like unions. A union doesn't need to be a mediocrity enforcing, all-encompassing beaurocracy. Programmers don't need a union to ensure fair pay or minimum hours. Our concerns are different, and a limited union can help. Eg: 1. Programmers need to be given 6 months heads up before big change in employment situation. (…

1. I got cut from my company during the holidays in 2016. I had a job less than a month later and was double paid for some days while the severance overlap with the new job.

2. This one is interesting to me, but also might be mildly insulting to a laborer fighting for it because they actually get tired at the end of a day's work. On call is stressful, but it's first world stressful. Furthermore, you can usually do something about it to make sure that the app gets more stable over time.

3. Again this would be interesting, but I feel no loss. The company gives me an opportunity to use the vacation days, and if I am cut from the company mid-year I am paid for the vacation days I didn't use for that year. Although at my current company This is all theoretical anyway because I am given unlimited vacation days. I know unlimited vacation days are bad and come with their own caveats, but hey, if you don't want unlimited vacation days to become the norm, Don't legislate around vacation days.

4. I'm actually pretty comfortable with this one for maternity, but men really don't need much paternity. Most of the five weeks paternity leave I was given I just screwed around and home. I need 3 days, tops.

5. Our work is flexible enough nature that we can just eat at 1:00 most of the time.

6. If your company is having you do meetings at 11:00 p.m. you can just switch companies.

7. The commute is fully paid for. You knew what you were signing up for when you started the job and they fully pay for it in your salary.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#237

Post by afavour »

zaphar wrote: post #218
afavour wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> community support structure ...what do you think a union is? I feel as though you're imagining the Big Bad Union that big companies love to describe. A union can be in whatever form you wish it to be. If software engineers wish to band together to form a union solely to improve their health insurance then they could just do that.

I don't get to pick unions. I get to pick my community support structures. Who I marry, which church,friend group,local community group I join? Those are all voluntary. Unions are not voluntary so they can't really be a community support group in the sense I mean.

Of course you do, you can choose to not take a job with an attached union you don't like. As you said, there are plenty of opportunities out there!

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#238

Post by Jensson »

shortrounddev2 wrote: post #226
Jensson wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People voted not to have a union, so apparently democracy doesn't get you what you want, at least in your case.

In most states in the US you are not required to join the union if your workplace votes for it

But you can't form a union if they vote against it, which is why you are here arguing with people. So we here we have clear proof that even if you spend years arguing it doesn't necessarily lead to the democratic results you want. Individual bargaining however seems to work very well, lots of people get what they want that way much faster and easier than any democratic process. And that is why people vote to not have unions.

The moment developers have a cause they can agree on, they will start to vote for unions. And no it isn't too late at that point, rather it is too early to vote for a union unless you have a cause you collectively care about.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#239

Post by giantg2 »

salil999 wrote: post #26
giantg2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that they are typically salaried, I wonder what the hour adjusted pay is? The median for a dev in the US is $110k, and many of those jobs fall in higher than average cost of living areas. It's possible that people in the industry want better working conditions or more equal/open pay systems, not just more money. Better hiring practices could be nice too.

The problem with looking at hourly pay is that I don't feel it applies well to the software industry. I can easily say there are some weeks where I have little to nothing to do and there are other weeks where I'm working a full day every day of the week.

There are also hourly jobs where you get paid for slow times of doing almost nothing. You would want to track hours worked (including hours that you did almost nothing but were still required to be at work or logged on) per year with pay per year.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#240

Post by yunwal »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #48
kdmccormick wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO our profession's adherence to ethics and technical standards is shockingly low compared to others. If a civil engineer was asked to build a bridge that will probably be unsafe, I think they and their colleagues would have the power to refuse (right?). If a software engineer is asked to ship a feature that's probably insecure then... IDK, gotta get it to prod, move fast and break things, right? I wonder if unioni…

A whole lot of software just supports a business, and a non-critical business at that. If my buggy software takes down, say, pets.com, well, first, the world won't end because pets.com is down for 8 hours, and second, pets.com wasn't going to succeed even if my software was perfect. That kind of software isn't like building a bridge; it's more like building a birdhouse. Nobody's going to die if it collapses. (OK, a b…

The real pets.com (petsmart) stores credit card data. As do many other “non-critical” sites.
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