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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#121

Post by the-smug-one »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

With a union backing them up individuals can more easily:

- Get better at salary negotiation and interviews through having union training - Share how much they earn with other workers, even distributing statistics, reinforcing salary negotiation power and the ability for workers to ensure that businesses doesn't engage in illegal wage fixing - Have union back up when HR are being a pest to protect the company - Ensure that fair severance is distributed when an individual is let go - Negotiate on-call scheduling as a group - Negotiate all other parts of their contract, for example removing pesky no competes - Engage in lobbying

Individuals, even ones with great competence within their field of expertise, have a lot less information regarding the game they're playing with other companies. Unions can help with that.

Note: You can still be in a union without having your workplace be 'unionized' or having a collective agreement with the union. You can still engage in salary negotiations individually, and you may still skip out on being in the workplace's union.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#122

Post by lr4444lr »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

And those 20% won't even be compensated 2-3x higher under a union: likely just in lockstep with their years of service. A union might figure out a couple of tiers within the payscale for specialized or managerial work, but I expect those to be gamed as well by shrewd but mediocre people.

Following up on what you say, the main reason for unions is to help labor extract more of the wealth they create. While I'm sure there are lots of people here who think devs should make more of it, they live pretty comfortably. It'd be like saying doctors should unionize to get a lockstep salary from the hospitals where they work. There might be some marginal benefits to it, no doubt, but they don't as a class seem any more interested in it than devs do.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#124

Post by xeromal »

RandomLensman wrote: post #67
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Why would a 10x engineer object to improved working conditions for all? Some general hatred for coworkers?

Because Union agreements can bind pay to non meritocratic ways such as time spent in the role or when a higher position opens up. Those top players will rise to the top easier in an open market. It's the same with waitstaff in a tip-based system. The bottom half wants fair wages while the top 20% will leave because they know they can earn without those rules in place.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#125

Post by itsoktocry »

mycologos wrote: post #104
itsoktocry wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are on an assembly line and you have 45 s to do your job you either do it, or don't. If you do it fast and wait for 40 s you don't add any value. Have you worked on an assembly line? I have. You may not add value by doing it faster, but you certainly cause problems if you do it slower.

I think the distinction is the relationship between the median performer and the 90th percentile performer. The two are very different employees for software development but not on an assembly line. As you point out, there is a difference between the median performer and the 10th percentile performer on an assembly line, but that's not the comparison the parent comment introduced.

>As you point out, there is a difference between the median performer

But I didn't say that, and I don't agree.

I think the 90th percentile never causes delays on a particular station, while the median may cause a few per hour, and the 10th percentile might delay every 2nd or 3rd cycle.

There are tangible costs associated with those levels of performance.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#127

Post by LetTheSmokeOut »

FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #20

Has no one heard of the CWA? They were huge back when I live in California. Granted that was quite a long time ago and when telco's were a major power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Workers_of_Amer...

CWA is a big part of the tech unionization effort today: https://code-cwa.org/

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#128

Post by _aavaa_ »

runako wrote: post #86
_aavaa_ wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By contrast, the recent headlines about UPS drivers making $170k are for drivers with 5+ years of tenure. They do not make 170k, that was a puff piece from UPS. That number was total compensation + monetary value of all benefits. Which not the way most people/postings talk about compensation.

> Which not the way most people/postings talk about compensation. This is a tech site. People in tech routinely include the value of e.g. RSUs in compensation numbers. Point taken, but a) it's not too far afield from how tech comp is discussed and b) even if you back out the non-cash components, the drivers still make a lot of money. (Possibly more even than the median US software developer.)

I agree that things like RSUs are generally included, but the 50k of benefits does not include RSUs. The closest this they talk about is the pension plan, which they quote as 23k.

Looks like UPS quotes above 95k avg, and 42$/hr avg after 4 years. I have no idea how that compares to average tech salary, but I agree that it is good money.

That last thing worth mentioning, also from UPS' site is that almost half of their full-time drivers have been at the company for >15 years. That's a long time.

[0]: https://about.ups.com/us/en/our-company/great-employer/real-...

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#129

Post by onion2k »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little?

Actors are unionized.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#130

Post by the-smug-one »

marcinzm wrote: post #89
throw0101c wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When hasn't it won in the western world? In the US, post-WW2 until Reagan got elected.

They still won just not as much as now.

I agree, us non-capitalists took more of the cake back then.
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