111–120 of 380 posts
I know European Union work quite differently than in the US. My experience with unions in the US like the teachers unions where conditions are still poor, pay is poor, and everything based on seniority rather than skill, you’re stuck with whatever the union negotiates regardless if you’re in the union or not …. I want nothing to do with that.
What people forget is that teachers are part time workers, with full time pay.
Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…
Why would a 10x engineer object to improved working conditions for all? Some general hatred for coworkers?
Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…
I think we're still in such a good position relative to everyone else in society that it's difficult to see the need for collective bargaining. The skills are in demand and not easily replicated. There are enough tech jobs that the solution to almost any workplace issue is to quit and work somewhere else - often for more pay. > The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Lots of people will claim t…
Corps have been pushing down wages for decades. Here's some methods:
- Offshoring
- Automation
- Skeleton teams
- Long hours
- Removal of bonuses for anyone but managers
- Removal of signing bonuses (this was a thing in the late 90s)
- Recruiters posing mid level people as seniors.
- No or inadequate inflation raises
- Coordinated layoffs (flood the market, hire back what you need at deflated prices)
- Little or no on site skill training (this was also big in the late 90s)
- A few large, entrenched tech companies.
>So long as tech workers are difficult to replace, they already have considerable power.
You may think that, but the phrase, "no one is irreplaceable," and "the graveyard is full of irreplaceable people," is still true. Go piss off your CEO, call him incompetent or something, and see how replaceable you really are. He will ditch you and make everyone else pick up the load.
Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…
A more accurate mental model is to understand a union as trading some (or most) of your individual negotiating leverage and advancement opportunity out for a collective negotiating structure through the union. You have less opportunity to negotiate and advance on your own, but you would, in theory, get various protections in return.
This does not mean wages go up! In fact, companies are now incentivized to withhold as much compensation as they can get away with so they have room to negotiate in the next round of union talks. You also have to be prepared to strike to force those negotiations, which means giving up your compensation for that period.
Job hopping is huge in the software industry. It’s well known that job hopping is an easy way to get a pay increase when you’re in bad conditions. I would be surprised if software engineers as a whole would accept long strikes and strict compensation structures when they realize they can actually earn more by jumping out of a hypothetical union job where they’re not getting paid due to strikes and the recruiters come calling with job offers that are conveniently for 5-10% more than their union’s demands anyway.
Hard pass. I can do better without a union than with one, and I refuse to subsidise those who can't.
And then, of course, there's the argument that those that truly need the unions could be your kids, your relatives, people you care about.
I don't think you need to be so concerned about subsidizing others; we all already benefit from that. This stance of being so protective of your labor should be reserved for employers and the Capital class, not weaponized against fellow workers to throw them under the bus.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.
The average software developer makes $110k/yr, and there's a clear differentiation between having a million dollars (or million s ) in your 20s and 30s compared to retiring with $2-3 million in a 401k that you need to live off of for four decades.
This is why I spend a lot of think wondering what could a union even do for me? I work in comfort. If I work long hours that's my decision because I can always get another high paying less stressful job. Over my career I've taken very high paying jobs with high stress for the money and also chill lower paying jobs. Every job I've ever had I've outearned my both my working parents.
I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…
Definitely something that is in no danger of changing at any point in the future! What a relief for all of us!
We already have ample evidence that tech giants colluded to depress the salaries of their workers. I can understand being wary of unions but to suggest they’d provide absolutely nothing feels like a failure of imagination.
I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…
Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a decent take. But taking a view on markets outside of the US and SV/bigtech in particular, those 10x devs aren't usually getting the 2-3x as much, and taking a view of industry in total, profits are runaway but wages are flat and falling, especially when considering inflation. Capital is winning. Perhaps unions are required. But I'm not a union member and likely never will be.
Is that true? I am only a dataset of one, but while my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up. We can say that employers should reward employees who stay, but in an industry where getting your next job is trivial (in my experience anyway), I just say sucks to be those companies when I take my institutional knowledge with me. Also it's been my experience that remote work has put real pre…
There's a well-known plateau in tech wages that affects most tech workers. Look at what your current employer pays people 10 or 20 years older than you for the type of work you do and you will be able to observe the plateau.